[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

This was probably one of the areas where badge engineering did not hurt. Firebird and Camaro had different enough styling that Firebird was often the third leg on the 3-legged Camaro - Mustang - Firebird stool and buyer groups of Camaro vs Firebird were very vocal and competitive. At the same time, building both cars on the same line was super efficient. Maybe too efficient. I recall when I ordered my C4 my dealer took me out to the lot and showed me a Camaro that had a Firebird badge on the passenger fender. The kiss of death for Camaro / Firebird in 2002 was the lack of an appropriate RWD architecture that could pass new crash test requirements and fuel economy requirements. Sigma was considered but Cadillac wanted to keep it Cadillac only and it was also over-subscribed in the planning horizon. Ironically, most of the vehicles planned for Sigma at the time Camaro was excluded never saw the light of day.

Yes, but I think by the time the Camaro production was running down, the days for Pontiac were already clearly numbered. I do know that there wasn't really a new platform ready for the Camaro as well, that much I do recall being stated many times over... it's part of why GM was trying to do the GTO.... and ultimately the Zeta platform came about for the 5th gens..

[Evergreen6]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I'm driving an EV right now and there are only 2 issues. One, cost. They are still a more expensive choice. Two, access to Level 2, 3 or Supercharging if you can't charge at home. If you can charge at home it almost becomes a no brainer for an EV for 90 plus percent of your driving. And the other 10 is probably back to access to charging.

Spot-on. Cost for a new vehicle ICV versus EV is starting to intersect, however, with many good lower-cost options on the market. We're not talking about <$10k ubiquity in the used market yet. Hertz dumping a portion of its EV fleet as well as falling resale of used Tesla's are creating some very affordable, <$25k options in the used car segment. It only gets better from here.

We have a level 2 EV charger at home. Right now, we are on the road for a month with our EV and there is a level of difficult higher than for an ICV refuel with finding DC fast charging on the road. In most cases it's not that it's not available, it's that the chargers are in-use, and also reliability issues with the chargers. Everything from maintenance issues, to sabotage (because that's how f*ed up some anti-EV people are). But we're still able to keep our EV charged on the road.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

Yes, but I think by the time the Camaro production was running down, the days for Pontiac were already clearly numbered. I do know that there wasn't really a new platform ready for the Camaro as well, that much I do recall being stated many times over... it's part of why GM was trying to do the GTO.... and ultimately the Zeta platform came about for the 5th gens..

Early 2000s there was a significant push, at least in Planning, to bolster the Pontiac portfolio. One of the things we were considering was putting Solstice on the “soon to be old Y-Car” platform. Now, this was when we were expecting C7 to be mid-engine. I think we all know how that played out. There was also consideration of a Sigma based Pontiac sedan. It actually slotted ahead of a Sigma based Camaro. Both initiatives crashed fairly quickly because of the Cadillac only leaning for Sigma. GTO happening first from Zeta, then G8, and finally Chevy SS should give you an idea of how much push there was for performance product at Pontiac over Chevy. There was a lot of work to position Pontiac as the performance / youthful excitement brand, Chevrolet as the family brand.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

Spot-on. Cost for a new vehicle ICV versus EV is starting to intersect, however, with many good lower-cost options on the market. We're not talking about <$10k ubiquity in the used market yet. Hertz dumping a portion of its EV fleet as well as falling resale of used Tesla's are creating some very affordable, <$25k options in the used car segment. It only gets better from here.

We have a level 2 EV charger at home. Right now, we are on the road for a month with our EV and there is a level of difficult higher than for an ICV refuel with finding DC fast charging on the road. In most cases it's not that it's not available, it's that the chargers are in-use, and also reliability issues with the chargers. Everything from maintenance issues, to sabotage (because that's how f*ed up some anti-EV people are). But we're still able to keep our EV charged on the road.

Part of the drop in resale for Tesla models is self-inflicted. Tesla keeps suddenly dropping the prices of new cars by thousands of dollars, requiring drops in the price of used Teslas to stay under the price of new ones. I saw a stat today, from a competing data and auto consulting firm so I won’t name them . According to their report, the average transaction price of Teslas sold in the US in January 2024 was $50,795. The average transaction price of cars sold in the US in January 2024 is $48,759. So basically a $2,000 difference EV to ICE. Top that off with a $ 7,500 incentive for eligible buyers and now you’re easily looking at parity.

[olrocker]

Well written and very true.

Barra is going down as worse than Roger Smith in the history of GM CEOs.

[Evergreen6]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Part of the drop in resale for Tesla models is self-inflicted. Tesla keeps suddenly dropping the prices of new cars by thousands of dollars, requiring drops in the price of used Teslas to stay under the price of new ones. I saw a stat today, from a competing data and auto consulting firm so I won’t name them . According to their report, the average transaction price of Teslas sold in the US in January 2024 was $50,795. The average transaction price of cars sold in the US in January 2024 is $48,759. So basically a $2,000 difference EV to ICE. Top that off with a $ 7,500 incentive for eligible buyers and now you’re easily looking at parity.

I have so far been unable to find data on median transaction price of an ICV. I think "median" would paint a different picture of what the typical new car sells for. The average transaction price of a new car is bonkers considering what median income is in the US. I have a hunch the "median" price is much lower than average.

Elon keeps dropping the prices on Teslas to drive sales. He has real competition now. That's terrible news for anyone who wants to resell their car, and the new-EV tax credit doesn't help resale either.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

I have so far been unable to find data on median transaction price of an ICV. I think "median" would paint a different picture of what the typical new car sells for. The average transaction price of a new car is bonkers considering what median income is in the US. I have a hunch the "median" price is much lower than average.

Elon keeps dropping the prices on Teslas to drive sales. He has real competition now. That's terrible news for anyone who wants to resell their car, and the new-EV tax credit doesn't help resale either.

On one hand I expect the distribution to be bimodal. On the other hand, you’d be hard pressed to find new cars priced under $ 30,000. Chevrolet Trax and Buick Envista are pretty much flying off the dealer lots now. They are among just a handful of vehicles priced under $ 30,000.

Actually, Tesla hasn’t faced real volume competition yet. At least not in the US. BYD is giving them fits in China. They still control over 50% of EV sales in the US. They have two models in the Top 10 of vehicles sold in the US and the #1 selling vehicle in the world. The timing and amount of the most recent price drops were specifically to get more vehicles under the $55,000 (cars) and $80,000 (utilities) price points to qualify for IRA incentives for qualifying buyers. I also think that one of the Model Y price drops was specifically to F with Ford, because it came just as Ford was starting to ramp up Mach E production. Ford wound up having to make similar price drops on Mach E.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

On one hand I expect the distribution to be bimodal. On the other hand, you’d be hard pressed to find new cars priced under $ 30,000. Chevrolet Trax and Buick Envista are pretty much flying off the dealer lots now. They are among just a handful of vehicles priced under $ 30,000.

Actually, Tesla hasn’t faced real volume competition yet. At least not in the US. BYD is giving them fits in China. They still control over 50% of EV sales in the US. They have two models in the Top 10 of vehicles sold in the US and the #1 selling vehicle in the world. The timing and amount of the most recent price drops were specifically to get more vehicles under the $55,000 (cars) and $80,000 (utilities) price points to qualify for IRA incentives for qualifying buyers. I also think that one of the Model Y price drops was specifically to F with Ford, because it came just as Ford was starting to ramp up Mach E production. Ford wound up having to make similar price drops on Mach E.

Kia/Hyundai seems to be the one to keep the eyes on here. They seem to be able to deliver enough quality at a decent enough pricepoint. Apart from Tesla, they seem to be gaining traction and becoming the 2nd most common, at least from my own observations. What Tesla has done as far as starting a car brand has been nothing short of amazing, but it's going to take an even more amazing feat of engineering/marketing/production to compete long term when bigger manufacturers are leveraging all of their advantages. The only constant in business is change and it's a lot more common for a business to think it's in a niche vs. the reality that someone will always come along and do what you do, cheaper, faster, more efficiently, and so on.

[genxer]

Does anyone have info on the different GM brands' demographic strategy (and reality) from the early 00's? Was pushing performance into Pontiac an attempt to shift it? I thought of late-model Pontiacs as chick cars.

Tesla has had dude centric buyers. And their design head was a Pontiac designer. (am I the only one that thinks Teslas look like chick cars?).

[Texas1ss]

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

Spot-on. Cost for a new vehicle ICV versus EV is starting to intersect, however, with many good lower-cost options on the market. We're not talking about <$10k ubiquity in the used market yet. Hertz dumping a portion of its EV fleet as well as falling resale of used Tesla's are creating some very affordable, <$25k options in the used car segment. It only gets better from here.

Everything from maintenance issues, to sabotage (because that's how f*ed up some anti-EV people are). But we're still able to keep our EV charged on the road.

I hear you. When electric vehicles first got targeted, it was IMO a lot more about how expensive they were, jealousy, and people just being petty.

After right-wing media's relentless bashing of EVs over the years, I have a feeling most of the EV haters are "drill, baby drill" idiots who have been brainwashed by misinformation and nonsense from the very people who profit off their stupidity.

If one can imagine when cars were invented and just the play things of the ultra rich, you'd see the same nonsense from dimwits who have no clue, such as things said like below:

"Cars are too expensive. They'll never catch on. Nobody can afford them except the ultra rich."

"There's no infrastructure for cars. Roads are mostly dirt and gravel crap, and they get stuck in mud, where my horse can go anywhere. Paved roads are few and far between, and they'll never catch up to demand. My horse won't ever become obsolete and can take me anywhere. Screw cars."

"There's not enough gas stations, and the infrastructure will not support them. Horses are superior, and I'll never be caught driving a stupid car."

Etc, Etc. It was all nonsense then as it is now. We know who won the race. What I find most amusing about it is the people that hate electric vehicles and spout this same type of outlandish BS about EV vehicles today would rather make multi-billionaires out of people in the middle east and elsewhere, even in our own country, while they manipulate the prices to suit their needs and hold our economy by the balls.

It's mind boggling to me. But some people have dug in. But they will lose in the end.

All that said, I love my Camaro SS. I will enjoy it and drive it till the day I can't any longer or can't find gas for it. It's my daily driver now and about to be garaged for mods. I've also had countless hot rods over the years. I will miss newer gas V8 cars, but the writing is on the wall. That's progress.

But I'd love the day I could get an affordable, sporty looking EV, that I don't have to line big oil's pockets any longer. By then the range could be 2,000 miles or more on a charge. Who knows?

[Smokin19]

Remember this sound because you will never hear it from an EV.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5-SbXr...u.be#searching

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by genxer

Does anyone have info on the different GM brands' demographic strategy (and reality) from the early 00's? Was pushing performance into Pontiac an attempt to shift it? I thought of late-model Pontiacs as chick cars.

Tesla has had dude centric buyers. And their design head was a Pontiac designer. (am I the only one that thinks Teslas look like chick cars?).

Chick cars maybe, but the resemblance of the Model Y to the Azzzzztek is striking.

Learning the designer is a former Pontiac designer makes perfect sense now.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by olrocker

Well written and very true.

Barra is going down as worse than Roger Smith in the history of GM CEOs.

LOL not even close. Mary has made GM consistently and HUGELY profitable. In my nearly 30 years there not many CEOs could say that.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Smokin19

Remember this sound because you will never hear it from an EV.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5-SbXr...u.be#searching

Yeah actually you can. I think it was Borla creating speakers for the back of the car. That and Kia has a “hot hatch EV” that has sounds and built in feel of shifting. And sadly I’m sure this will be just fine for gamers.

But BMW has “enhanced” engines sounds in their cars today. I believe a few others do as well. So is it that much worse than that?

And I’ve tried to post the video of my SS Sedan and yes, I miss that very much.