04-25-2024, 09:42 AM | #1975 | |
Drives: 2021 Camaro ZL1 A10 Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,212
|
Quote:
Civics when well taken care of can last decades. EVs have a short lifespan. That’s why there will be 2-3 EVs sold for every Civic (or Corolla, Camry, etc.).
__________________
2021 Camaro ZL1 A10
2022 GR Supra 3.0 Past: 2018 Mustang GT Premium w/ PP1, MR, and A10 2007 MazdaSpeed3 1995 Pontiac Trans Am 1987 Camaro Z28 Last edited by Idaho2018GTPremium; 04-25-2024 at 09:55 AM. |
|
04-25-2024, 10:00 AM | #1976 |
Drives: 2023 Camaro 1SS Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 1,463
|
I'd be interested to see your data analysis here.
Tesla warranties their batteries for 8 years or 125k, and people are getting 200k+ with around only 10% capacity loss. I'm not aware of any ICV manufacturer who warranties anything for 125k, are you? |
04-25-2024, 11:19 AM | #1977 | |
Retired from GM
Drives: 2017 Camaro Fifty SS Convertible Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Detroit
Posts: 5,253
|
Quote:
__________________
2017 CAMARO FIFTY SS CONVERTIBLE
A8 | MRC | NPP | Nav | HUD | GM Performance CAI | Tony Mamo LT1 V2 Ported TB | Kooks 1-7/8” LT Headers | FlexFuel Tune | Thinkware Q800 Pro front and rear dash cam | Charcoal Tint for Taillights and 3rd Brakelight | Orange and Carbon Fiber Bowties | 1LE Wheels in Gunmetal Gray | Carbon Fiber Interior Overlays | Novistretch bra and mirror covers | Tow hitch for bicycle rack | |
|
04-25-2024, 12:22 PM | #1978 | |||
Retired from GM
Drives: 2017 Camaro Fifty SS Convertible Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Detroit
Posts: 5,253
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Let’s not conflate maintenance / longevity with repairability. Today EVs have a repairability problem. Parts distribution systems are not mature, especially for direct-to-customer sales (no dealership network). So they rely on the OE for parts supply to repair vehicles that have been physically damaged. This is not sustainable. Add to that the tendency for BEVs to be over the air updatable via software upgrades and you have a scenario where owners are more likely to keep older vehicles that acquire new capabilities via upgrades. The Tesla we bought in November now has capabilities it did not have when we bought it. Nothing spectacular. Just things like the Lane Departure Warning indicators now show a red line next to the camera view of the lane we’re looking to merge into if something is in the blind spot. But the thing is, people who bought similar cars in 2018 receive most of the same upgrades and now have product capability equivalent to a brand new car on the lot. This is not unique to EVs. ICE manufacturers are starting to add the same capability. But the point is, the continuous system upgrades and feature enhancement goes a long way towards keeping the vehicle fresh. Batteries are showing to last longer than originally expected provided the owners properly care for them and follow recommended charging instructions. A lot of owners are seeing single digit % drop off in the first year of operation, then leveling off for years. Proper care includes
__________________
2017 CAMARO FIFTY SS CONVERTIBLE
A8 | MRC | NPP | Nav | HUD | GM Performance CAI | Tony Mamo LT1 V2 Ported TB | Kooks 1-7/8” LT Headers | FlexFuel Tune | Thinkware Q800 Pro front and rear dash cam | Charcoal Tint for Taillights and 3rd Brakelight | Orange and Carbon Fiber Bowties | 1LE Wheels in Gunmetal Gray | Carbon Fiber Interior Overlays | Novistretch bra and mirror covers | Tow hitch for bicycle rack | |
|||
04-26-2024, 03:44 AM | #1979 | ||
Drives: 2015 Z28 Join Date: Feb 2022
Location: Cambridge UK
Posts: 130
|
Quote:
EVs are also constantly developing, getting more range per kW where ICE cars are about as economical as they are going to get. And why just Co2? Theres at least 20 harmful materials coming out of ICE tailpipes, theres none coming out of EVs. Other than that its a great argument. Quote:
Last edited by docwra; 04-26-2024 at 04:02 AM. |
||
04-26-2024, 09:28 AM | #1980 |
Drives: 2002 Camaro SS SOM; 2015 Malibu LTZ Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 4,031
|
Here are a few of my random thoughts. EVs are not a new automotive concept. The concept has been around for decades. It has been as recent as a decade that EVs are slowly but surely approaching the mainstream automotive genre. Its acceptance continues to be mixed, and some of the reasoning is valid.
One of those reasonings is reliability. As far as a mode of transportation, EVs (in my experience) are fine utensils of transportation. They can reach your destination with far less noise and pollution. The issue comes with re-charging and re-energizing. On average it takes far more time to re-charge a battery cell, and at this writing it is unclear about options for battery servicing and replacement. In terms of real world reliability and acceptance, EVs have yet to exceed modern ICE vehicles. There are some factions that will refuse to give up ICE for EVs. If push came to shove, the majority of ICE owners will simply buy more Honda Civics, Toyota Corollas, and Chevrolet Silverado (yours truly included). ICE vehicles have endured at least ten decades of advancement, and the end result of some advancements are astonishing. Those advancements include power at any displacement, improved fuel efficiency, and technology advancements aimed at ICE vehicles. However, I feel that alternative energy sources are needed, and should continue to advance in development and marketing. The objective should always be to develop an improvement in the means of reliable transportation for all.
__________________
'02 CAMARO SS SOM; 5.7L LS1/FLS6B
'08 TBSS AWD Black Granite Metallic '15 Malibu LTZ 2LZ Turbo '14 CAMARO ZL1 Blue Ray Metallic |
04-27-2024, 09:11 AM | #1981 | |
Drives: 2023 Camaro 1SS Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 1,463
|
Quote:
|
|
04-27-2024, 12:56 PM | #1982 |
Drives: 2023 Camaro 1SS 1LE 6MT Join Date: Nov 2023
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 177
|
I like the idea of less things to break (at least on commuter cars where "soul" or "driving character" isn't necessary).
My biggest worry is the battery. If you do not follow the traditional "Don't discharge below 30%/Don't charge over 80%" at all, how long does the pack last? I'm not talking even talking strictly from a mileage point of view either. The chemicals in the battery degrade over time as well. I can see an EV in 10 years with lowish mileage being ok, I can see a 2 year old EV with high mileage being ok, but what about a 10 y/o car with say 200,000 Miles on the clock? Battery replacement cost is huge. Not to mention, with a 10's of thousands $ repair, would you want to invest that in an EV with "old" drivetrain technology? With ICE cars, you can buy a 40 year old car that may only take a few thousand to get running great. As for sports cars, the gimmick isn't just "pedal go down I go fast", it's also the sound of the motor, the feel of the motor, the connection to it and the transmission and everything. Not to discredit engineers working on electric vehicles as the work is still impressive, but their inherent simplicity also leaves less room for areas of engagement/excitement. I can buy an ICE car from 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, and feel like I am having way more fun, even if it's just a car with 130 HP. Maybe it's a tiny high revving V6, with amazing induction sounds, and a crisp free shifting manual transmission. Maybe it's a 180HP V8 with huge sound, lumpy idle, and again, just super fun to master the transmission. Will there be people looking back at any EV car and go "yeah, this car has so much character regardless of deficiency A or B"? Is there enough to make it feel "special" like many ICE cars in the past still do to this day? I get I kind of have "old school" thinking and really like all the moving parts that just sing when you have the right car on the right road. If you're totally ok with just having the push you back in the seat feeling, all my points are basically moot. |
04-27-2024, 02:15 PM | #1983 | |
It don’t come easy.
|
Quote:
This
__________________
|
|
04-27-2024, 03:19 PM | #1984 | |
Big Crow
Drives: '13 ZL1 Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: California
Posts: 1,489
|
Quote:
The battery pack will last as long as most of us keep the car with exceptions. It's replaced free for up to 8years and 120,000 miles. How long is your 2023 fully covered for with clutch engine and other parts? Have you priced those and other maintenance lately? Have you taken your car in to have it joyrided or otherwise damaged that wasn't there before? I detest taking my cars in. I don't pay for brakes and rotors now, oil, air oil filter, plugs coil packs going bad, ecm's going out TCMs or FPCMs going out, fuel pump replacements and fuel filters, crank position sensor, timing chain or belt. There are just so many items that don't need repair. On my older sedan the intake sensor would go out of specs in the oem ecm flash and even new sensors would not fix it and needed an expensive dealer only ecm reflash. My O2 sensors are needing replacement on my work truck...my turbo needs replacing on my GM due to bad engineering and needs the whole exhaust manifold replaced with it. A multi thousand dollar repair on an older cheap car plus it has a bad designed egr in plastic that is causing idle problems too that cost $1k plus to repair. My romanticism across the board with ICE cars has met reality Have you actually yourself worked on 15 or 20 yr old cars lately? Many parts just degrade even if they themselves aren't broken, they do break as you try to repair other things. That egr in the plastic intake with plastic tubes and plastic electrical connectors. In my civic mechanics that knew were correct in saying don't try to unplug the the coil packs because connectors break on the harness. The rubber parts and seat foams and everything else just breaks down. Cars just become not up to our standards after say 15 or 20 years and worse if older. Repairs are not like the old 70s 350 small block a few bolts and on goes a new starter alternator or mechanical fuel pump. Not by a long shot! A person can enjoy any year classic car but romanticizing about good ol' cars gets a slap in the face as you yourself try to restore them or pay $$$$ for someone to do it for you. My last few resto cars Fbodies from the late 80s needed so much $ I junked them as it wasn't viable. Yesterday Domino's said my carry out pizzas were running 1/2 hour late. I went to my climate controlled BEV and sat in comfort watching NETFLIX on the big screen with no fiddling around for a charger or having it stolen like a tablet left in the car. It's linked up to my account so I could pick right up where I left off on a favorite series. But I couldn't play with a stick shifter or push button AM radio though Last edited by silversleeper; 04-27-2024 at 05:12 PM. |
|
04-27-2024, 05:27 PM | #1985 | |||
Retired from GM
Drives: 2017 Camaro Fifty SS Convertible Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Detroit
Posts: 5,253
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I’m still at buy and drive what makes you feel good and let everyone else do the same.
__________________
2017 CAMARO FIFTY SS CONVERTIBLE
A8 | MRC | NPP | Nav | HUD | GM Performance CAI | Tony Mamo LT1 V2 Ported TB | Kooks 1-7/8” LT Headers | FlexFuel Tune | Thinkware Q800 Pro front and rear dash cam | Charcoal Tint for Taillights and 3rd Brakelight | Orange and Carbon Fiber Bowties | 1LE Wheels in Gunmetal Gray | Carbon Fiber Interior Overlays | Novistretch bra and mirror covers | Tow hitch for bicycle rack | |
|||
04-27-2024, 05:36 PM | #1986 | |
It don’t come easy.
|
Quote:
And this!
__________________
|
|
04-27-2024, 06:07 PM | #1987 | ||
Drives: 2023 Camaro 1SS 1LE 6MT Join Date: Nov 2023
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 177
|
Quote:
Quote:
I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression, my parents own a Tesla that I've driven quite a bit. It is fun, I get it. Sorry to give the impression I don't think they can be fun. The instant torque is pretty sweet. But as I mentioned, I crave more. As something for me that I plan to own for more then 10, 15, maybe even 20 years, I feel more comfortable with the mechanical side of things. I know how to check things on my car and am pretty in tune with them, I get a feel for the wear on things without really needing the mechanic to tell me. As for parts in engines/trans nickel and diming us along the way, I do not see that as any worse then replacing one huge cost every X amount of years. I'd actually prefer the "pay as you go" approach. As for engine/clutch, I have 7 years on my Camaro (I think 100,000 Mi), and I seriously doubt I'd wear the clutch/Trans/Engine in even 10 years/120k Mi. I do realize that's a tall claim, but as long as there is no defect (Which I would hope would show up in the first 7 years), I know how to get the life out of vehicles. I have fun without beating the shit out of my cars, and I'm huge on keeping up with maintenance. (Some might find it a pain in the ass, I find it fun) I completely agree on the sentiment of it's too early to really tell, but what I do know is batteries just don't last forever. 10 years is pushing it for any battery regardless of chemistry. I just can't trust expecting 1% decline/year consistently as the years rack up, seems very optimistic. If you get it replaced within warranty, that's great. As a car you don't plan to own much past warranty, I definitely won't argue with the incentives to the simplicity. I guess I always like owning cars for a looong time. I usually hate selling them. Last edited by speedyink1; 04-27-2024 at 06:28 PM. |
||
04-27-2024, 07:52 PM | #1988 | |
Drives: 2021 Camaro ZL1 A10 Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,212
|
Quote:
I've also ridden in numerous Model 3s and even a Model S Plaid, and Mach-e. Doesn't change my mind that all they have is instant torque. The Plaid is very quick, of course, but still under-braked and other than hp, uninteresting to me. At least the Model S is a good-looking car. I'm not completely anti EV, they have their place I guess, I'm anti traditional ICE manufacturers swapping entirely to EVs and stopping developing interesting ICEs (mainly) for sports cars.
__________________
2021 Camaro ZL1 A10
2022 GR Supra 3.0 Past: 2018 Mustang GT Premium w/ PP1, MR, and A10 2007 MazdaSpeed3 1995 Pontiac Trans Am 1987 Camaro Z28 Last edited by Idaho2018GTPremium; 04-27-2024 at 09:54 PM. |
|
|
|