Info on FI

[Traven95]

So I live in cali and basically want more power.
Cant do a cam or headers because of smog laws and I dont know a guy to help me get by next year when I have to take in my car.

So I am looking into getting a blower. Specifically stage 2 p1x procharger or Maggie heartbeat. I'm leaning more towards the procharger because I hear ones like the heartbeat may add good hp but they also use up hp because of the power it takes to run them

I have a stock l99 with hf cats and catback. nothing done to the engine or drive train so I'm wondering if anything is recommended to replace when going FI
The kit says the stock cam and internals can withstand the 7.5psi the p1x uses. But are there any weaknesses known around that tend to spring up.

Also are there any other parts you guys recommend to give me more power. Torque converter?(but I think that's more if I get a cam right?) Or a 3.73 gear

It's just a pain trying to comply with CARB laws

Looking for as much info as I can. All of this is new to me so I'm constantly searching the forums for more information.

[SSMickey]

I know nothing about CARB and Cali think god. SC could care less what you do to your car.

Any belt driven blower; ProCharger, Vortech, Paxton, Maggie or SLP will take power to run. Turbos do not since there exhaust driven.

The positive displacement blowers require a complicated, dedicated cooling system and they still heat soak badly and drive up your IAT's. The centrifugal blowers like ProCharger use an Air to Air intercooler that is simple to plumb and very efficient.

My P1-X will be to hot to touch after a hard pull, but the intake pipe by the throttle body is just warm and my IAT's stay under control.

The PD blowers will have very good low RPM torque. Practically instantaneous. Step on the gas and your in boost and it's all there, but they tend to run out of steam up top. The centrifugal blowers as well as turbos build boost in a linear fashion. Not all that much down low, but they just keep going to redline.

I'd just get the ProCharger P1-SC HO kit and bolt it on per the instruction and use there tune and be CARB legal. I'm not sure, but I think that kit is CARB approved. That kit and tune is designed for completely stock engines and drivelines.

[10aSSee D]

Heartbeat or Whipple would be choices. I just like the instant power they deliver.

[Traven95]

Originally Posted by SSMickey

I know nothing about CARB and Cali think god. SC could care less what you do to your car.

Any belt driven blower; ProCharger, Vortech, Paxton, Maggie or SLP will take power to run. Turbos do not since there exhaust driven.

The positive displacement blowers require a complicated, dedicated cooling system and they still heat soak badly and drive up your IAT's. The centrifugal blowers like ProCharger use an Air to Air intercooler that is simple to plumb and very efficient.

My P1-X will be to hot to touch after a hard pull, but the intake pipe by the throttle body is just warm and my IAT's stay under control.

The PD blowers will have very good low RPM torque. Practically instantaneous. Step on the gas and your in boost and it's all there, but they tend to run out of steam up top. The centrifugal blowers as well as turbos build boost in a linear fashion. Not all that much down low, but they just keep going to redline.

I'd just get the ProCharger P1-SC HO kit and bolt it on per the instruction and use there tune and be CARB legal. I'm not sure, but I think that kit is CARB approved. That kit and tune is designed for completely stock engines and drivelines.

Thanks for the info man.
Another reason I was looking at it was because of the cool temps.. do you know the difference between p1-sc HO and stage 2 p1x?

[scv_guy]

If your open to the idea of a turbo kit. Look at the turbonetics kit. It is CARB approved and makes great power. I was able to make 650rwhp on the stage 1 kit with fuel system upgrades. However the kit is complete and will make 550ish out of the box with the tune.
Not a bad deal...

[760bowtie]

That turbonetics kit is the way to go if you want to stay carb legal.

[Traven95]

Originally Posted by scv_guy

If your open to the idea of a turbo kit. Look at the turbonetics kit. It is CARB approved and makes great power. I was able to make 650rwhp on the stage 1 kit with fuel system upgrades. However the kit is complete and will make 550ish out of the box with the tune.
Not a bad deal...

I was thinking of turbonetics but haven't heard much about it and plus theres a lot more that goes in to turbo kits which makes me think more things can go wrong haha
Those are the numbers I want though. You made 650rwhp? What kind of fuel upgrades did you have?(Something else I dont know much about) what other upgrades did you have besides that? How much psi?

[scv_guy]

I made 650rwhp at 13psi, at the time I was running 1000cc injectors and the Livernoise dual pump with meth injection. Pretty straightforward setup.
Speaking from experience the turbo is much simpler to deal with. No belts slipping or IAT issues.

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by Traven95

So I live in cali and basically want more power.
Cant do a cam or headers because of smog laws and I dont know a guy to help me get by next year when I have to take in my car.

So I am looking into getting a blower. Specifically stage 2 p1x procharger or Maggie heartbeat. I'm leaning more towards the procharger because I hear ones like the heartbeat may add good hp but they also use up hp because of the power it takes to run them

I have a stock l99 with hf cats and catback. nothing done to the engine or drive train so I'm wondering if anything is recommended to replace when going FI
The kit says the stock cam and internals can withstand the 7.5psi the p1x uses. But are there any weaknesses known around that tend to spring up.

Also are there any other parts you guys recommend to give me more power. Torque converter?(but I think that's more if I get a cam right?) Or a 3.73 gear

It's just a pain trying to comply with CARB laws

Looking for as much info as I can. All of this is new to me so I'm constantly searching the forums for more information.

Originally Posted by Traven95

Another reason I was looking at it was because of the cool temps.. do you know the difference between p1-sc HO and stage 2 p1x?

Originally Posted by Traven95

I was thinking of turbonetics but haven't heard much about it and plus theres a lot more that goes in to turbo kits which makes me think more things can go wrong haha
Those are the numbers I want though. You made 650rwhp? What kind of fuel upgrades did you have?(Something else I dont know much about) what other upgrades did you have besides that? How much psi?

I'm going to try to attend this and keep it in order, but it jumps around a bit so bare with me.... I apologize for the amount of information, but you mention looking for info.... and it'll take a bit to cover your questions and musings.

You live in Cali. You have to abide the CARB rules. You don't know a "Guy" to help you next year..... If you move into any blower that isn't CARB certified, then you will be in a bind without that "guy." Another issue with this is you stated no headers or Cam due to CARB requirements. This is going to be very limiting to a blower of any type.

You state you are leaning towards the Pro-Charger since Heartbeats use up hp because of the power it takes to run them.

Blowers, all blowers and turbos use power to make power..... Nothing is free, including boost.... You have tradeoffs with each. I freely admit, I'm biased towards turbos as I run twins... I know and have been around and work on cars with blowers.... It is known that for the most part, blowers are 45-55 % parasitic loss and turbos are 10-15 % parasitic loss. These numbers can be slightly affected by the build design, but they are pretty hard numbers...

Blowers make grunt off the line. This is a big talking point.... A properly designed turbo kit can make just as much grunt off the line and they don't run out of steam as early on the top end. Smaller turbos spool faster, and bigger turbos will carry you further on the top (RPM) end. Most races, both from a dig and from a roll are performed in the top end of the RPM range.... No one shifts purposely at say 3500 rpm to get back in the grunt range.... You shift at the peak RPM power range and try to remain in the power band of the subsequent gear.

Not having headers and a blower oriented cam will increase the parasitic loss. You mention the heat asking about the difference between the D1SC and the P1X. Heat is generated by any boost increasing application, with maybe the exception of "nitrous." which some consider boost and some do not.

Any "boost" increase device make heat directly proportional to how hard they have to work to make the boost. A D1SC is the smaller chassis of the two mentioned, and therefore it will work harder and spin faster to make the boost than would the P1X. The same is applicable to turbos and top mount blowers such as the Kenne Bell. The 2.3KB works much harder and spins much faster to make boost than does the Mammoth KB. An analogy I've used for this in the past is think of a large living room..... Put a 48 inch ceiling fan in there and then swap the 48 inch fan for a 62 or 72 inch fan.... The larger the fan, the slower it has to spin to flow the air (boost).

As far as heat say under the hood..... This is often determined by the style of driving and intended purpose of the performance.... If you don't race, then the heat may only come into play when the A/C shuts off due to operating temps.. I've seen this on a D1SC driving in South Texas summer heat. Any top mount blower will generate heat under the hood in the same fashion, as will top mount turbos. They are all just big heat sinks. They generate heat, and they retain heat. Some front mount blowers can be blanketed as can top mount turbos to reduce some of the heat under the hood.... There are also other tricks that can be used to reduce this. Saying this though, it is very hard to remove heat sink in any type of road racing or hot lap drag racing from Blowers.... It is just too big of a chunk of metal...

The turbonetics kit was mentioned and you mention not knowing or having heard much about it, "and plus theres a lot more that goes in to turbo kits which makes me think more things can go wrong haha."Turbonetics on their dime, designed and built a kit for CARB certification as they realized there would be a market. There is..... I get the feeling you are implying turbos are more complicated.... but I'm telling you blower kits can be just as complicated.

Turbos, as you probably well know, interrupt the exhaust flow with a turbine wheel taking advantage of both the heat, volume and exhaust velocity to make increased amounts of boost. There is no need for exhaust system changes. Several kits on the market make 1000 + RWHP with the factory stock manifolds. This requires extensive motor work for dependability and longevity... Yes, there are hero runs and pulls. To take advantage of a blower, a blower specific cam and an upgraded exhaust system are needed. Both of which you mentioned are CARB restricted. Blowers have drive systems/belts that require upgraded tensioners, belt swaps, pulleys, etc.... Both systems can be as complicated or as simple as you wish. My car is incredibly complicated but it isn't a daily driver though it is street legal registered and insured.

You were asking about fuel system upgrades. With the Turbonetics kit, everything you need for the gains, and to remain CARB legal are included. You might have n option or two but for the most part, you are stuck with the kit as built, unless you meet the"guy."

Additional upgrades.... You are in the 325 or so RWHP range right now.... give or take.... A turbonetics kit will include everything needed to make 550 ish RWHP. This includes the spark plugs and injectors. This is roughly a 225 RWHP increase..... You are already looking for power increases to 650 RWHP and yet you still have to remain CARB legal.... It's contagious.... Your first drive will create shaky knees and a hellacious grin....

Additional items you re going to have to figure out how to put the power on the ground, or buy lots of tires.... and you will be replacing parts as you break things with traction increases.

I'm not telling you what to do, but be informed. I would not want to push the limits, and build a car that isn't CARB legal living in Cali and then end up spending money to reverse the build or remove the relevant parts just for an inspection. That would quickly take the shine off the build. My build is complicated, and I get tired of simply changing from street to race dress.... This involves removing the rear spoiler installing the factory lip spoiler, removing the side mirrors, removing the license plate and installing the parachute. There are a lot of other things but it's a day long event twice or three times a year....

Lastly, budget.... simply put.... allow for additional items as there is always something that crops up.... Oh, regardless of what you do, a stall converter would be a nice addition.... Then consider axles, toe rods, trailing arms,

[Traven95]

Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS

I'm going to try to attend this and keep it in order, but it jumps around a bit so bare with me.... I apologize for the amount of information, but you mention looking for info.... and it'll take a bit to cover your questions and musings.

You live in Cali. You have to abide the CARB rules. You don't know a "Guy" to help you next year..... If you move into any blower that isn't CARB certified, then you will be in a bind without that "guy." Another issue with this is you stated no headers or Cam due to CARB requirements. This is going to be very limiting to a blower of any type.

You state you are leaning towards the Pro-Charger since Heartbeats use up hp because of the power it takes to run them.

Blowers, all blowers and turbos use power to make power..... Nothing is free, including boost.... You have tradeoffs with each. I freely admit, I'm biased towards turbos as I run twins... I know and have been around and work on cars with blowers.... It is known that for the most part, blowers are 45-55 % parasitic loss and turbos are 10-15 % parasitic loss. These numbers can be slightly affected by the build design, but they are pretty hard numbers...

Blowers make grunt off the line. This is a big talking point.... A properly designed turbo kit can make just as much grunt off the line and they don't run out of steam as early on the top end. Smaller turbos spool faster, and bigger turbos will carry you further on the top (RPM) end. Most races, both from a dig and from a roll are performed in the top end of the RPM range.... No one shifts purposely at say 3500 rpm to get back in the grunt range.... You shift at the peak RPM power range and try to remain in the power band of the subsequent gear.

Not having headers and a blower oriented cam will increase the parasitic loss. You mention the heat asking about the difference between the D1SC and the P1X. Heat is generated by any boost increasing application, with maybe the exception of "nitrous." which some consider boost and some do not.

Any "boost" increase device make heat directly proportional to how hard they have to work to make the boost. A D1SC is the smaller chassis of the two mentioned, and therefore it will work harder and spin faster to make the boost than would the P1X. The same is applicable to turbos and top mount blowers such as the Kenne Bell. The 2.3KB works much harder and spins much faster to make boost than does the Mammoth KB. An analogy I've used for this in the past is think of a large living room..... Put a 48 inch ceiling fan in there and then swap the 48 inch fan for a 62 or 72 inch fan.... The larger the fan, the slower it has to spin to flow the air (boost).

As far as heat say under the hood..... This is often determined by the style of driving and intended purpose of the performance.... If you don't race, then the heat may only come into play when the A/C shuts off due to operating temps.. I've seen this on a D1SC driving in South Texas summer heat. Any top mount blower will generate heat under the hood in the same fashion, as will top mount turbos. They are all just big heat sinks. They generate heat, and they retain heat. Some front mount blowers can be blanketed as can top mount turbos to reduce some of the heat under the hood.... There are also other tricks that can be used to reduce this. Saying this though, it is very hard to remove heat sink in any type of road racing or hot lap drag racing from Blowers.... It is just too big of a chunk of metal...

The turbonetics kit was mentioned and you mention not knowing or having heard much about it, "and plus theres a lot more that goes in to turbo kits which makes me think more things can go wrong haha."Turbonetics on their dime, designed and built a kit for CARB certification as they realized there would be a market. There is..... I get the feeling you are implying turbos are more complicated.... but I'm telling you blower kits can be just as complicated.

Turbos, as you probably well know, interrupt the exhaust flow with a turbine wheel taking advantage of both the heat, volume and exhaust velocity to make increased amounts of boost. There is no need for exhaust system changes. Several kits on the market make 1000 + RWHP with the factory stock manifolds. This requires extensive motor work for dependability and longevity... Yes, there are hero runs and pulls. To take advantage of a blower, a blower specific cam and an upgraded exhaust system are needed. Both of which you mentioned are CARB restricted. Blowers have drive systems/belts that require upgraded tensioners, belt swaps, pulleys, etc.... Both systems can be as complicated or as simple as you wish. My car is incredibly complicated but it isn't a daily driver though it is street legal registered and insured.

You were asking about fuel system upgrades. With the Turbonetics kit, everything you need for the gains, and to remain CARB legal are included. You might have n option or two but for the most part, you are stuck with the kit as built, unless you meet the"guy."

Additional upgrades.... You are in the 325 or so RWHP range right now.... give or take.... A turbonetics kit will include everything needed to make 550 ish RWHP. This includes the spark plugs and injectors. This is roughly a 225 RWHP increase..... You are already looking for power increases to 650 RWHP and yet you still have to remain CARB legal.... It's contagious.... Your first drive will create shaky knees and a hellacious grin....

Additional items you re going to have to figure out how to put the power on the ground, or buy lots of tires.... and you will be replacing parts as you break things with traction increases.

I'm not telling you what to do, but be informed. I would not want to push the limits, and build a car that isn't CARB legal living in Cali and then end up spending money to reverse the build or remove the relevant parts just for an inspection. That would quickly take the shine off the build. My build is complicated, and I get tired of simply changing from street to race dress.... This involves removing the rear spoiler installing the factory lip spoiler, removing the side mirrors, removing the license plate and installing the parachute. There are a lot of other things but it's a day long event twice or three times a year....

Lastly, budget.... simply put.... allow for additional items as there is always something that crops up.... Oh, regardless of what you do, a stall converter would be a nice addition.... Then consider axles, toe rods, trailing arms,

Thanks for all the info man. It's great to have people like you willing to give beginners like me the right knowledge when going into these things. I'll definitly look more into the turbonetics and do more overall research. I've found a little bit more info on it (turbonetics) since I posted this

[Traven95]

Originally Posted by scv_guy

I made 650rwhp at 13psi, at the time I was running 1000cc injectors and the Livernoise dual pump with meth injection. Pretty straightforward setup.
Speaking from experience the turbo is much simpler to deal with. No belts slipping or IAT issues.

A lot of stuff I don't know much about haha gonna get back to researching that set up. Thanks though man. Kinda gives me some guidelines to go along instead of searching blindly