Shno's House of Z - Page 1000 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

OldScoolCamaro · 01-03-2014, 10:55 PM

...I just can't follow the party line for GM on this one....and I respect the opinions from other people who know better than I....but there's something not white in the milk with this release. GM's a bit heady right now wiith pricing on the Z/28...with slumping sales in other markets. I could be the ignorant one...but there is some thought from a board room no doubt. I hope it works out for them.

Number 3 · 01-03-2014, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShnOmac

Perspective..... I like.

You can't just pull a part off of one car and put it on another and consider it validated... correct?

No you can't. A new engine alone can requires a lot of retesting. New seats? More testing. New wheels? More engineering. New suspension from F1? Holy crap more engineering, development and testing.

Does anyone know how many hours it takes to develop a chassis for ride AND handling?

Does anyone know how many hours it takes to calibrate an engine for the first use in a vehicle?

From someone not knowing the difference it's just a Camaro with some new parts. But even CC brakes and an LS7 (both from the Z06) require huge amounts of engineering to put in a Camaro and make sure that not only does it just start and go it will be durable and perform under very severe conditions.

Way more details in developing the business case than I know for this car but it is way more than a parts bin special. Too much new content and parts never used on a Camaro.

ShnOmac · 01-03-2014, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Number 3

No you can't. A new engine alone can requires a lot of retesting. New seats? More testing. New wheels? More engineering. New suspension from F1? Holy crap more engineering, development and testing.

Does anyone know how many hours it takes to develop a chassis for ride AND handling?

Does anyone know how many hours it takes to calibrate an engine for the first use in a vehicle?

From someone not knowing the difference it's just a Camaro with some new parts. But even CC brakes and an LS7 (both from the Z06) require huge amounts of engineering to put in a Camaro and make sure that not only does it just start and go it will be durable and perform under very severe conditions.

Way more details in developing the business case than I know for this car but it is way more than a parts bin special. Too much new content and parts never used on a Camaro.

Thanks for the insight Jim!

ShnOmac · 01-03-2014, 11:13 PM

I know its a headache to deal with but it would be great if you posted this info in the Z/28 price thread.... People respect your opinion/facts!

OldScoolCamaro · 01-03-2014, 11:21 PM

...GM testing, rigorous testing, total fail testing has been well documented to to this board.....that what GM does, to a fault no doubt. I can only beat the drum so long for my beloved Chevy. 20 K over ZL1, preposterous.

tramtwo · 01-04-2014, 01:07 AM

I'm an idiot but I am sure this Z car was not built for profit but to profit the brand!

PQ · 01-04-2014, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tramtwo

I'm an idiot but I am sure this Z car was not built for profit but to profit the brand!

I tend to agree. Or probably a bit of both. It will certainly not lose.

Number 3 · 01-04-2014, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShnOmac

I know its a headache to deal with but it would be great if you posted this info in the Z/28 price thread.... People respect your opinion/facts!

Pshhhhh they should all just visit The House.

mkorgan · 01-04-2014, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro

...GM testing, rigorous testing, total fail testing has been well documented to to this board.....that what GM does, to a fault no doubt. I can only beat the drum so long for my beloved Chevy. 20 K over ZL1, preposterous.

when you put it this way (20k more than a ZL1) I find it hard to argue. In my mind, much more went into developing the ZL1 than the Z/28 but even if I am wrong...20k more??? Yikes. I would love to have one but honestly I can't max out the capabilities of my ZL1 which I would think would be a prerequisite for being able to justify buying a Z/28, at least for me at this price.

Number 3 · 01-04-2014, 12:34 PM

Volume is the key differentiator even between the ZL1.

1,500 (assumed) vs. 5,000 including a convertible.

Just look at any new part on the car that isn't on any other car. That part requires tooling and fixtures or "capital expense" to produce.

If GM simply invested in tools for parts and tools at Oshawa to build the Z/28 in a high quality fashion let's just guess a number of $15,000,000. That would be $10,000 per Z/28 to simply recover that investment. Now I have no idea how much GM invested in the Camaro Z/28. Maybe it was a lot less, could have been more. But it wasn't zero.

Low volumes destroy business cases and low volumes make it harder to put a product through an assembly plant.

Just imagine a car that is 2% of production. That means for very 100 cars that go by 2 get something unique or special. That means you have to have 2 special unique parts at line side for the operator to install on the car. You have to have line space to have those parts available, you have to have a fork truck driver bring those parts to the line, you have to have in some cases special training for the unique parts. An efficiently laid out plant doesn't have extra space for this. On and on it goes and it all can cost money.

How about this simple one. On a part that goes on every car, the supplier can run the tools every day. What do you think happens on a part that supplier makes 6 per day? Do you think the supplier sets up the tool and makes 6 parts and stops? For the most part there are set up costs associated with the tools. I'm sure we have enough members on here that have small businesses that can elaborate. A supplier may simply run the years worth of parts. But then you have box them up and store them. GM doesn't accept and store a years worth of parts. No modern OEM does that. They accept parts as needed. But either you are paying for way more set up on the tools for low volume or you are paying way more to store parts in a warehouse someplace. Either way, it's more cost than on a "normal" part.

Again, these are all simply generalities and I have no idea what GM did or didn't do. But low volumes matter and they matter a lot.

So no, it might not make sense when you say $75,000 for a Z/28. That number in and of itself is quite daunting. But that is also less delivery of $750 or whatever a Camaro has and another $2,000 or whatever GG Tax might be and you are around $72,500 for the car.

Even if you use the ZL1 for the starting point, keep in mind the LSA is a mass produced engine, the LS7 is not. There is a premium. The CC brakes, another premium. Those 2 alone are at least a $10,000 increase over a ZL1. A ZL1 is $58,000 so add a simple 10 on top of that and you are at $68,000. Grasp the impact of the much lower volumes and your in the low 70's. It's pretty simple.

Look, I'd love one in my garage. The risk here was always that making the car this track focused would price it out of most peoples budget. It did mine for a non DD. And I'm not intending to start going to track days (although that would be fun). So I think most people are just crazy that it can't be a reality for them and they are questioning the cost. They want it to be a 1LE with a small $2500 engine option. I would frankly have bought a 1LE with an LS7 option and been happy of it even with a hug premium. That isn't reality. Or they want a Z/28 without the special parts and without the CC brakes. Well that's a car that is about as fast around the track as a ZL1 and having 2 cars in the showroom that do the same thing is not good business. Volumes for the ZL1 would simply drop.

The car is priced in a way to add value to the brand, add show room traffic, but not cannibalize many ZL1 or Corvette sales. It was contented and priced for a very specific buyer and we (including me) are simply having to come to the reality that we weren't it.

Number 3 · 01-04-2014, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

That is the $75,000 question.

Oh and BTW, this was post 14,000 in The House.

2cnd chance · 01-04-2014, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Number 3

Oh and BTW, this was post 14,000 in The House.

Cool! Do I win a Z/28?

2cnd chance · 01-04-2014, 02:48 PM

This Z/28 was not created for the "typical" Camaro guy for anything more than aspiration. With this Z/28 GM is showing its capabilities to compete with the elite and beat them. It's also going to be a marketing gem. I truly appreciate what they've done. If I was a kid this would be like getting a bucket of maraschino cherries on my kiddie sized sunday. I could buy one, however I won't as it ended up not being the Camaro for me. At this point I'm still considering a 1LE with Z/28 bits or a Z51.
Thanks GM for having the b**** to do it, you've raised the bar and our expectations for the future of auto engineering and design.

Number 3 · 01-04-2014, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Cool! Do I win a Z/28?

Sure, sure you do............a downloadable photo of a Z/28 is available on this site just for you.

01-03-2014, 10:55 PM	#13987
OldScoolCamaro Drives: Camaro's, always have, always will. Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Home of the brave Posts: 4,851	...I just can't follow the party line for GM on this one....and I respect the opinions from other people who know better than I....but there's something not white in the milk with this release. GM's a bit heady right now wiith pricing on the Z/28...with slumping sales in other markets. I could be the ignorant one...but there is some thought from a board room no doubt. I hope it works out for them. __________________ In Scott We Trust...all others must show proof.

01-03-2014, 11:21 PM	#13991
OldScoolCamaro Drives: Camaro's, always have, always will. Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Home of the brave Posts: 4,851	...GM testing, rigorous testing, total fail testing has been well documented to to this board.....that what GM does, to a fault no doubt. I can only beat the drum so long for my beloved Chevy. 20 K over ZL1, preposterous. __________________ In Scott We Trust...all others must show proof.

01-04-2014, 12:34 PM	#13996
Number 3 Hail to the King baby! Drives: '19 XT4 2.0T & '22 VW Atlas 2.0T Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Illinois Posts: 12,170 View My Garage	Volume is the key differentiator even between the ZL1. 1,500 (assumed) vs. 5,000 including a convertible. Just look at any new part on the car that isn't on any other car. That part requires tooling and fixtures or "capital expense" to produce. If GM simply invested in tools for parts and tools at Oshawa to build the Z/28 in a high quality fashion let's just guess a number of $15,000,000. That would be $10,000 per Z/28 to simply recover that investment. Now I have no idea how much GM invested in the Camaro Z/28. Maybe it was a lot less, could have been more. But it wasn't zero. Low volumes destroy business cases and low volumes make it harder to put a product through an assembly plant. Just imagine a car that is 2% of production. That means for very 100 cars that go by 2 get something unique or special. That means you have to have 2 special unique parts at line side for the operator to install on the car. You have to have line space to have those parts available, you have to have a fork truck driver bring those parts to the line, you have to have in some cases special training for the unique parts. An efficiently laid out plant doesn't have extra space for this. On and on it goes and it all can cost money. How about this simple one. On a part that goes on every car, the supplier can run the tools every day. What do you think happens on a part that supplier makes 6 per day? Do you think the supplier sets up the tool and makes 6 parts and stops? For the most part there are set up costs associated with the tools. I'm sure we have enough members on here that have small businesses that can elaborate. A supplier may simply run the years worth of parts. But then you have box them up and store them. GM doesn't accept and store a years worth of parts. No modern OEM does that. They accept parts as needed. But either you are paying for way more set up on the tools for low volume or you are paying way more to store parts in a warehouse someplace. Either way, it's more cost than on a "normal" part. Again, these are all simply generalities and I have no idea what GM did or didn't do. But low volumes matter and they matter a lot. So no, it might not make sense when you say $75,000 for a Z/28. That number in and of itself is quite daunting. But that is also less delivery of $750 or whatever a Camaro has and another $2,000 or whatever GG Tax might be and you are around $72,500 for the car. Even if you use the ZL1 for the starting point, keep in mind the LSA is a mass produced engine, the LS7 is not. There is a premium. The CC brakes, another premium. Those 2 alone are at least a $10,000 increase over a ZL1. A ZL1 is $58,000 so add a simple 10 on top of that and you are at $68,000. Grasp the impact of the much lower volumes and your in the low 70's. It's pretty simple. Look, I'd love one in my garage. The risk here was always that making the car this track focused would price it out of most peoples budget. It did mine for a non DD. And I'm not intending to start going to track days (although that would be fun). So I think most people are just crazy that it can't be a reality for them and they are questioning the cost. They want it to be a 1LE with a small $2500 engine option. I would frankly have bought a 1LE with an LS7 option and been happy of it even with a hug premium. That isn't reality. Or they want a Z/28 without the special parts and without the CC brakes. Well that's a car that is about as fast around the track as a ZL1 and having 2 cars in the showroom that do the same thing is not good business. Volumes for the ZL1 would simply drop. The car is priced in a way to add value to the brand, add show room traffic, but not cannibalize many ZL1 or Corvette sales. It was contented and priced for a very specific buyer and we (including me) are simply having to come to the reality that we weren't it. __________________ "Speed, it seems to me, provides the one genuinely modern pleasure." - Aldous Huxley Last edited by Number 3; 01-04-2014 at 12:48 PM.

01-04-2014, 02:48 PM	#13999
2cnd chance Too Many Great Choices Drives: Grand Sport/Z07 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: A Mountain Road Posts: 7,454	This Z/28 was not created for the "typical" Camaro guy for anything more than aspiration. With this Z/28 GM is showing its capabilities to compete with the elite and beat them. It's also going to be a marketing gem. I truly appreciate what they've done. If I was a kid this would be like getting a bucket of maraschino cherries on my kiddie sized sunday. I could buy one, however I won't as it ended up not being the Camaro for me. At this point I'm still considering a 1LE with Z/28 bits or a Z51. Thanks GM for having the b**** to do it, you've raised the bar and our expectations for the future of auto engineering and design. __________________ Last edited by 2cnd chance; 01-04-2014 at 03:32 PM.

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01-03-2014, 11:13 PM	#13990
ShnOmac Drives: 2006 Silverado SS, 2009 G8 GT Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: PNW Posts: 13,313	I know its a headache to deal with but it would be great if you posted this info in the Z/28 price thread.... People respect your opinion/facts!

01-04-2014, 01:07 AM	#13992
tramtwo Drives: 2021 1LE Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: N'Awlinz Posts: 6,315	I'm an idiot but I am sure this Z car was not built for profit but to profit the brand!