E85 FUEL

[scrming]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

The guys telling him to start filling back up with regular gas...i was kind of saying this in my original post, but i guess I never really came out and said it lol.

The LFX IS E85 compliant in some other vehicles, but is it or is it not in the 2012 Camaro? Last we heard, is that it wasn't offcially supported for the Camaro. My question is, are the alcohol sensors and appropriate tune needed for E85 actually there on the Camaro, or has GM left all of that out and just have a gas tune only like the 2010s and 2011s.

Its obvious with the right tune the engine can safely run on it, but is it there from the factory? I don't know.

With that in mind...go top off your tank with gasoline.

interesting... I see a lot of talk about the LFX is supposed to be a FlexFuel vehicle... but i don't find any official that says it is... so I downloaded the 2012 owners manual:

If the vehicle has the 3.6L V6 engine (VIN Code 3), use regular unleaded
gasoline with a posted octane rating of 87 or higher. If the octane rating
is less than 87, an audible knocking noise, commonly referred to as spark knock, might be heard when driving. If this occurs, use a gasoline rated at 87 octane or higher as soon as possible. If heavy knocking is heard when using gasoline rated at 87 octane or higher, the engine needs service.

So no mention of FlexFuel!!

[scrming]

Originally Posted by jsherm007

Well I'll see what the car says this morning... It seems odd the car doesn't compensate like other LFX engines. There is so much conflicting info out there.

Do you have a FlexFuel emblem on your car? Though GM usually puts those on vehicles that are FlexFuel capable...

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by AKA-22

im in the business of ethanol production and trust me its not the solution its only a temporary fix ,natural gas is going to be the next big thing.....

I agree. Had a discussion about natural gas over the weekend. Apparantly big companies like Walmart are kicking off the transition to natural gas by running it in some of their fleet vehicles.

I don't want to de-rail this thread but I'd love to know the energy properties of natural gas. For instance, ethanol seems to have less energy than gas in that a vehicle has to burn more of it to maintain the same amount of engine output. I wonder how natural gas compares and what if any advantages it might have (like E85 is very knock resistant). Would an engine, say a 3.6 V6 natural gas engine by able to output 300 horse like todays V6 gas engines can?

Sorry, my mind just has too many questions sometimes lol.

[jsherm007]

Well as expected check engine light on in AM. Put in 2/3 tank of 87... Turn on car, and light off immediately

[AKA-22]

check this out......http://e85vehicles.com/e85/index.php?topic=4753.0

use regular gas!!!

[bmorecam]

LFX unfortunately did not get flex fuel incorporated. I guess it's not really surprising since the MFG's does not look at e85 from the performance perspective. I guess they couldn't see a flex fuel badge next to camaro LOL.

Another thing you guys might want to take into consideration is that the initial tuning we did for ethanol was based off 85% ethanol or e85. There's not a rule book that say you have to use 85% ethanol. The whole purpose for ethanol is to resist knock when the dynamic compression is increased. Maybe someone could try with lower level of ethanol and see where is the limit. LNF's sweet spot is actually at 47% ethanol. Less ethanol also mean less cold start problem to virtually eliminating it all together.

[nikitis]

I'll put this to rest from the research I've done.

The LFX engine that is in the 2012 camaro IS E85 capable.

But....

Without the tune, it will not make use of it properly. Inside the Impala the stock tune has values for both fuel profiles, and a way to detect the alcohol difference. That is what makes a flex fuel car work, and that is what is missing in the Camaro. The stock tune doesn't know how to distribute it properly and sees it as under performing and brings up the CEL. Get the tune and you can run it just fine. However, with the tune, you won't be running Normal Gasoline properly as it will distribute it differently as well. And since there aren't that many E85 stations, no road trips for you in that Camaro. Might possibly flood the engine with too much gasoline.

As for ruining your Engine Seals. There are seals for use with E85 And Normal Gasoline, and there are just Normal Gasoline only seals. All older cars from like 2003 and older use only Normal Gasoline seals. Even 20% Ethanol in your fuel will corrode them and have been known to crack your block if your car is from 2003 and older. This strikes a whole other topic. There are TONS of cars pre-2003 still on the road. I just retired a 97 Toyota Camry which still runs fine for my Camaro. If I held onto that and the government decided to allow up to 20% ethanol at the pump, that car WOULD blow up within 6 months. This is why the government held back on forcing it. They were going to do it, but got a lot of pushback. They are waiting like 5 more years before they do it. Anyway, onto the LFX engine.

The LFX Engine was made to handle lots of Ethanol by using different alloys and seals that can support E85 And Normal Gasoline. It will not harm your engine chemically. With out the E85 tune, it may could harm it functionally due to what it needs to run properly, but only over time. Wouldn't cause it instantaneously .

If there was a gasoline shortage, and E85 was available I would use it temporarily as it would get me home to where I need to be in that emergency, but if you like to travel anywhere with your Camaro in the USA, do not do it. There just are not enough E85 stations out there.

Now the good news. One day gasoline is planned to move to E85 type fuels. You do not have to pay for expensive upgrades to make your engine run on it. GM will probably release a factory tune which is all you will need to make your car, the car of the future. At which point you will only run on E85. Not normal gasoline at no cost to you. They will probably bring it up as a free upgrade to save the environment or something. There are only like 10 E85 stations in my state which isn't enough and could easily get me stranded somewhere if I'm not watching the gasoline meter. Eventually this will change though. There will be other fuels, but this is sort of a cheap way GM is trying to do preventative damage and save costs later. As it's much cheaper to do a software upgrade than do retrofit an old engine with physical parts. They are mum on the subject because the mechanics don't know when you ask them about it. The GM Scientists have already thought all of this out and are gonna save GM a bundle if fuels ever do go the E85 route. It may never happen and for the life of the car we stay on Normal fuels. In which case GM has to do nothing.

[mandolino]

okay so the question i have is can i tune for the e85 does it offer some power gains ? or should i keep running 91 ( i drive the llt)

[IBM camaro]

Yes if you tune it the power difference I big you will pull much harder I run e85 with a tune in the summer times only and I can tell you my car is at least 300rwhp with full bolt ons tune and e85

[*_ERIC_*]

E85 consists of up to 85% of ethanol and 15% gasoline. E85 has an octane rating only of about 94-96. Which only means it has a higher compressibility than gasoline with an octane rating of 93,92,91,89, or 87. Also ethanol burns much quicker than gasoline, degrading your MPG. I've always noticed a 2-3 mpg difference when I run plain 87 octane and 87 octane with 10% ethanol in my Jeep. It does burn cleaner; however it has an increased output of Acetaldehyde, a carcinogen. It is more corrosive to your engine seals that were designed for petrol use only. Rust also plays an important role in the corrosiveness of E85 as well. This is due to the presence of water as it [ethanol] absorbs up to 50% more water than gasoline without ethanol additives. Understanding that the ethanol fuel/air ratio is much higher than gasoline fuel/air ratio does equate to more power but also results in higher cylinder temperatures which can be detrimental to a car with a stock bottom end.

If you look at the cost to switch (bigger pump, injectors, seals, etc) also considering the shortened life of the motor, economically it outweighs running E85 opposed to regular no ethanol gasoline. This is especially true if you're going to add a supercharger or turbo further down the road. My opinion, save the money from switching to E85 and alternate through 2 or 3 different tunes. A 91 tune, 93 tune, 95 tune, or 102 race tune or whatever you feel comfortable with using. This way you're not paying 8-10 a gallon for race gas every time you want to take it to the track. In the long run, you'll save money. Because face it, your engine will not last as long before you're tearing it apart, replacing seals, and strengthening your bottom end while you're at it. You'll be spending just about the same as you do for 91 octane when you look at the long term MPG loss. Unless you have money to burn and are doing a complete build for racing purposes, it would seem pointless to me. Only then could I see the real value of E85.

[ShortBlock]

Just got off the phone with the service dept. And they said if u have a black gas cap u need reg. Gas,but if u have a Yellow cap u can use E85. The yellow cap will say E85 on it.

[SneakyBlue]

Besides needing a tune to run E85 on the LFX motor and also the proper harness for Flex Fuel capability, should other items such as the stock fuel pump, fuel lines, and injectors be upgraded on a naturally aspirated V6 application?

['10CamaroDude]

SneakyBlue:



I run 5-6 Gallons of E83 with 87 Octane fule, and it runs great! My Mustang likes
it too. You won't need octane booster, and you won't need high-priced premium.
The 5-6 gallons of E85 on top of 87 works good for me. I started doing that a year
ago, with m former '12 Jetta SE, Mustang, and now my '10 Camaro V6.



For a naturally aspirated engine, you should not need to do anything to use E85.
A tune will help with more fuel deliver, but then you need larger injectors. If you're
forced induction, then you will need larger injectors. E85 is less efficient than E10
or E15, and requires more of it for the same results.



If you want more horsepower, then you need a tune and larger injectors. The stock
fuel pump may be able to keep up, but not with forced induction.


The MOTOR specs says it's E85 Capable. There is no special harness for the motor.
An E85 car has a factory program in the ECU for it. You won't have an issue running
a mix like I do. I am happy with it, so I will continue. You can probably get away
with running full on E85 for a while. It's just harder on seals and o-rings. If the
car is made to run on E85 alone, it will have different seals, and o-rings.

[DSX_Camaro]

Please don't run E85 in some capacity without tuning. Our LFX has no tuning parameters for higher ethanol quantities so you'll be running lean. The injectors on our cars do not need to be upgraded, ever, they are plenty high pressure, over 100# (lol) but the high pressure fuel pump does not know what to do with higher ethanol ratings. The in tank fuel pump is fine if you don't run boost, if you do recommend the ZL1 tank pump.


Harness and tune and you're good.