Twin turbo for the 2010 V6 Camaro

[matt55]

Originally Posted by fredbo

im thinkin a twin turbo should put it @ around 500 rwhp

Originally Posted by general23cmp

Wow! How much boost you planning on running to get that?

V6's dyno at 250ish WHP (304 hp)
To get 500 WHP(608 hp) you should need at least 15psi
Thats asking alot of that motor with such a high C/R on pump gas .

[Mike@DS]

Originally Posted by matt55

V6's dyno at 250ish WHP (304 hp)
To get 500 WHP(608 hp) you should need at least 15psi
Thats asking alot of that motor with such a high C/R on pump gas .

Lets not forget that pump gas is being delivered via direct injection....whole new ballgame.

[Z_Rocks]

Originally Posted by Mike@Diablosport

Lets not forget that pump gas is being delivered via direct injection....whole new ballgame.

Mike, is it true that DI cars are more difficult to tune? From what I've read, the next LS engine for Corvettes and Camaros will be DI with more power and more efficient, and perhaps smaller CC. I wonder how that will affect the tuners?

[THE EVIL TW1N]

Originally Posted by mrray13

Sheer basics here...

supercharger is belt driven. Takes horsepower to make horsepower, however it's instant! Foot on gas, back in seat!

turbocharger is exhaust driven. Free horsepower as it takes waste gases to spool a turbine and compress air the way a supercharger does. Depending on turbo, one might get lag, as the turbo can only spool when you are on the gas, and it takes a moment. Between new vane designs and ball bearings, amongst other things, turbo lag is all but a thing of the past.


Supercharges can be cheaper due to the fact that depending upon style , centrifigual or roots,and boost, all one has to do is change intake plumbing and belt. Turbo's require new exhaust manifolds and intake plumbing, in the bare minimum.

turbo's aren't free HP from exhaust. It still "robs" HP, just not nearly the amount a SC does. But turbo's usually bring on a whole set of problems as well such as the heat they generate. And they can be more finicky and can require more maintenence.

[MIAPLAYA]

Originally Posted by matt55

V6's dyno at 250ish WHP (304 hp)
To get 500 WHP(608 hp) you should need at least 15psi
Thats asking alot of that motor with such a high C/R on pump gas .

On what turbo? Bost pressure is subjective. 15 PSI on a 88 mm compressor is not the same as 15 PSI on a TD04. for example the SS makes what 350 to the wheels give or take? At 9 PSI turbonetics is making ~650 HP with a 61mm compressor. My 350Z made 234 WHP stock. At 8 PSI on a 60-1 compressor I made 379 WHP on pump gas. I wouldn't be so quick to say you need 15 PSI and call it that. It will depend on the system design and the compressor used in the system.

[MIAPLAYA]

Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N

turbo's aren't free HP from exhaust. It still "robs" HP, just not nearly the amount a SC does. But turbo's usually bring on a whole set of problems as well such as the heat they generate. And they can be more finicky and can require more maintenence.

Can you expand on this a bit more? Turbochargers actually are close to 100% efficient as they utilize exhaust gas spent during the combusting cycle and convert that waste energy which would otherwise by expelled from the tail pipe into additional power by driving a compressor wheel on the cold side. This in definition alone means a turbocharger does not have parasitic loss. The energy used to drive a supercharger is the same energy used to turn the crankshaft meaning the supercharger is a parastic power draw using some of the existing power to spin the screws. The exhaust gas exiting the manifolds and leaving the tail pipe is not used for ANYTHING therefore it being used to turn the turbine wheel and compressor wheel results in wasted energy being converted to more horsepower or zero parasitic loss. Also modern turbochargers are quiet reliable and do not necessarily require "more maintenance". Any car with forced induction should have oil changes done very often (3,000 miles is my preference) and routine inspection of the equipment used regardless of supercharger or turbocharger. There is nothing special neeeded for turbos here. In regards to heat modern turbos are typically watercooled and do not add significant heat especially when ceramic coating is used.

[Z_Rocks]

Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA

Can you expand on this a bit more? Turbochargers actually are close to 100% efficient as they utilize exhaust gas spent during the combusting cycle and convert that waste energy which would otherwise by expelled from the tail pipe into additional power by driving a compressor wheel on the cold side. This in definition alone means a turbocharger does not have parasitic loss. The energy used to drive a supercharger is the same energy used to turn the crankshaft meaning the supercharger is a parastic power draw using some of the existing power to spin the screws. The exhaust gas exiting the manifolds and leaving the tail pipe is not used for ANYTHING therefore it being used to turn the turbine wheel and compressor wheel results in wasted energy being converted to more horsepower or zero parasitic loss. Also modern turbochargers are quiet reliable and do not necessarily require "more maintenance". Any car with forced induction should have oil changes done very often (3,000 miles is my preference) and routine inspection of the equipment used regardless of supercharger or turbocharger. There is nothing special neeeded for turbos here. In regards to heat modern turbos are typically watercooled and do not add significant heat especially when ceramic coating is used.

I think what he means by loss of energy, is the back pressure related to having the turbo charger and preventing the exhaust to free flow through the pipes. I agree with this to some minute extend. However, having proper Turbo size and ball bearing, can eliminate this back pressure to a large extend. Secondly, the further away the turbo is from the exhaust manifold, the less of back pressure problem you would encounter. When adding Turbo, the best thing is to replace the stock CATs with High Flow Cats and replace "Chambered" mufflers with straight through mufflers, and you barely loose any power due to back pressure. In Turbo system, you want to have the least amount of blockage after the hot side, to get the gas pass through the turbo as fast as possible. My two cents!

[MIAPLAYA]

Originally Posted by Z_Rocks

I think what he means by loss of energy, is the back pressure related to having the turbo charger and preventing the exhaust to free flow through the pipes. I agree with this to some minute extend. However, having proper Turbo size and ball bearing, can eliminate this back pressure to a large extend. Secondly, the further away the turbo is from the exhaust manifold, the less of back pressure problem you would encounter. When adding Turbo, the best thing is to replace the stock CATs with High Flow Cats and replace "Chambered" mufflers with straight through mufflers, and you barely loose any power due to back pressure. In Turbo system, you want to have the least amount of blockage after the hot side, to get the gas pass through the turbo as fast as possible. My two cents!

You have a point here and are absolutely correct. A properlly sized turbocharger shoudl result in little to no added backpressure especially if you have a high flowing turbine wheel and relatively open exhaust before and after the turbine section. That's why I mentioned in my post that turbos are almost 100% efficient. The only reduction from 100% is the amount removed for any backpressure presented to the engine. With a properlly set up turbocharger system and the correct size wheel and housing this should be no issue. One could argue that with a perfectly match combination of turbine wheel, housing, and ehxaust system you could present a near zero increase in backpressure. Compare this with a supercharger where you are guranteed to have parasitic loss though. No matter how free flowing the ehxaust system is you will have parasitic loss from a supercharger.

[matt55]

Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA

On what turbo? Bost pressure is subjective. 15 PSI on a 88 mm compressor is not the same as 15 PSI on a TD04. for example the SS makes what 350 to the wheels give or take? At 9 PSI turbonetics is making ~650 HP with a 61mm compressor. My 350Z made 234 WHP stock. At 8 PSI on a 60-1 compressor I made 379 WHP on pump gas. I wouldn't be so quick to say you need 15 PSI and call it that. It will depend on the system design and the compressor used in the system.

A properly sized one .......

Big turbo VS small turbo , yes bigger is more efficient so you get a cooler charge, less back presure and can tune accordingly , but who is going to strap an 88mm on a stock 3.6 ?


Turbonetics made 650 Whp ? or 650 flywheel HP , Ive not seen it in the thread .


Lets play a game , lets say to X 2 WHP you need X 2 the atmosphere , 14.7psi
I would say to go from 234 to 379 you need about 9 psi


234 whp(your stock) X 1.62 = 379whp (with turbo 8 psi , tune , exhaust?)
14.7psi (1bar , an atmosphere at sea level) X 1.62 = 9.1psi ("-" 14.7psi for the atosphere)

Pretty close huh ? and if your stock #'s had a tune and was 240whp and 8psi it would come up with 377 whp . a 54% gain or 54% X 14.7psi = 8psi


So I still say to get +500WHP on a stock Camaro 3.6 DI you need at least 15psi or close to it , +/- , you milage mat vary , no $ back guarantee , dang its close enough for the internet

[Toastylicious]

This might be a dumb question but which 1 would be safer for the engine a turbo set up or a supercharger.

[GEIST LS9]

Originally Posted by Legend17

why twin turbo these engines? one turbo is more than capable of powering it. am i missing something?

TWO WORDS:TURBO LAG,
as with a single turbo it'll take a while for the air to spool the turbo which causes a lag or space of time between you putting your foot to the carpet and the power comming to bear.

a twin turbo setup can allievate this by usually having two small trubos which take less time to spool and one turbo can spool the other therefore creating a more instantanious power response

you can use a compound boost setup which involves usually 1-2 turbos feeding into a supercharger like Hellion does with the GT500 AND SVT Cobra kits.this has several advantages like adding more low end torque

[GEIST LS9]

Originally Posted by Toastylicious

This might be a dumb question but which 1 would be safer for the engine a turbo set up or a supercharger.

me i'd go with a blower.my 2 cents

[Abygale]

Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA

On what turbo? Bost pressure is subjective. 15 PSI on a 88 mm compressor is not the same as 15 PSI on a TD04. for example the SS makes what 350 to the wheels give or take? At 9 PSI turbonetics is making ~650 HP with a 61mm compressor. My 350Z made 234 WHP stock. At 8 PSI on a 60-1 compressor I made 379 WHP on pump gas. I wouldn't be so quick to say you need 15 PSI and call it that. It will depend on the system design and the compressor used in the system.

The big question is whether they can tune it, the rest of it doesn't matter if they can't.

[MIAPLAYA]

Originally Posted by matt55

A properly sized one .......

Big turbo VS small turbo , yes bigger is more efficient so you get a cooler charge, less back presure and can tune accordingly , but who is going to strap an 88mm on a stock 3.6 ?


Turbonetics made 650 Whp ? or 650 flywheel HP , Ive not seen it in the thread .


Lets play a game , lets say to X 2 WHP you need X 2 the atmosphere , 14.7psi
I would say to go from 234 to 379 you need about 9 psi


234 whp(your stock) X 1.62 = 379whp (with turbo 8 psi , tune , exhaust?)
14.7psi (1bar , an atmosphere at sea level) X 1.62 = 9.1psi ("-" 14.7psi for the atosphere)

Pretty close huh ? and if your stock #'s had a tune and was 240whp and 8psi it would come up with 377 whp . a 54% gain or 54% X 14.7psi = 8psi


So I still say to get +500WHP on a stock Camaro 3.6 DI you need at least 15psi or close to it , +/- , you milage mat vary , no $ back guarantee , dang its close enough for the internet

Bigger is more efficient at higher pressure ratios sure but not at the low end of the pressure ratio portion of the compressor island. The bigger wheel is simply larger thus the mass flow rate at a given pressure ratio is higher resulting in larger amounts of air at lower pressure ratios. I'm not recommending ANYONE strap an 88 mm compressor wheel to the V6 Camaro. That turbo would be horribly oversized and at the surge limit at anything below peak pressure ratio. Turbonetics initial tuning is putting that car at 650 WHP at 9 PSI on 91 pump gas yes. That is the SS of course so its a completely different motor. The V6 Camaro motor (aside from being a DIS) is similar in displacement to the VQ35DE. And while the flow profiles are quite different I'm sure I'm willing to bet the Turbonetics GT-K 650 would easily flow enough for 500 WHP with low back pressure as a SINGLE unit and at closer to 10 PSI. I'm not sure I understand your math. Making the leap to say you need 14.7 PSI above atmospheric to double your horsepower output is a stretch I think. I've seen several motors (Nissan and non-Nissan) make double their horsepower at under 14.7 above atmos. There's just too many other factors involved including Ve, flow profiles, cam profiles, etc. By the way I found my dyno sheets from my Z. It made 234 WHP BONE STOCK and 390 WHP at 9 PSI. That a 160 HP gain at 9 PSI of boost. Of course this isn't a thread about the VQ35DE. That's a completely different story. I'm willing to bet with a reasonable sized single turbo unit you could make 500 HP or very close to at at under 14.7 PSI above atmospheric. Twins is obviously a different animal.