Meth question, and opinions on timing with E85

[eLeSthree]

Last time I was on the dyno we ran 14 degrees of timing on E77 and made 837/729. The tuner backed the timing down to 12.5 degrees before taking it off the dyno, where it made 808whp on the same 18.7psi.

To those guys who have experience with their cars tunes, do you think that I am running too much boost and not enough timing? My friends procharged ls3 P1SC runs 12.5psi with 20 degrees of timing on E77, making 750whp.

My tuner prefers more boost and less timing to keep it safe and make the same power. he's concerned with the SBE holding the power. I am not. I wanna send it, pop it, forge it. Well, I'd prefer it held forever, but I'm realistic.


So I have 2 questions:
1. Since the 14degrees of timing showed a good gain in power, zero knock retard, and plenty of inj DC, should I continue to add timing on just Pump E?

2. I've been considering running an inexpensive single nozzle meth kit, and a few degrees more timing (even have a smaller pulley if needed), to turn it up to hit 900.

what would you do?

Keep in mind, I don't go to the track. I have zero suspension mods, and don't plan on trying to dig the car. It's a babied street car that has only seen 9k miles in the last 2 years. That said, it hooks pretty good from 2nd gear rolls on 325/40/18 MH Racemaster.

[eLeSthree]

no one knows how much timing they run on e85?

I know every setup is different, and cfm @ psi will vary, but I'm just trying to see how my setup compares with others like it.

I usually max at a 2.36 cyl air mass.

[UNRIVALED SS]

If it’s a babied street car just leave it like it is. It won’t break and if you’re not running it hard why try to make more power?
There are numerous variables to consider when tuning a car. Ambient air temp, elevation, humidity, numerous. So that’s why you don’t run on the rated edge unless you’re willing to constantly data log and adjust for these things. Like some racers do.
Just leave it alone and drive it. If it only has 9000 miles you need to get out and enjoy it more.

[eLeSthree]

Originally Posted by UNRIVALED SS

If it’s a babied street car just leave it like it is. It won’t break and if you’re not running it hard why try to make more power?
There are numerous variables to consider when tuning a car. Ambient air temp, elevation, humidity, numerous. So that’s why you don’t run on the rated edge unless you’re willing to constantly data log and adjust for these things. Like some racers do.
Just leave it alone and drive it. If it only has 9000 miles you need to get out and enjoy it more.

Sorry, I thought this was a technical forum where people come to talk about their Force Induction setups.

Its a pretty simple inquiry... just curious about timing on e85 with boost.

It’s ok if you dont know.

[fif_gen_powa]

https://www.dragstuff.com/techarticl...ark-plugs.html

As every engine and combo is different this is the only true answer

[eLeSthree]

Originally Posted by fif_gen_powa

https://www.dragstuff.com/techarticl...ark-plugs.html

As every engine and combo is different this is the only true answer

Interesting. I didn't know you could read the plugs for timing info. Thought it was just for afr, and like the article points out, everyone I've ever seen doing it, was doing it wrong.

So to find the blue timing mark...
This requires a fresh set of plugs and the ability to run the car wide open for about a 1/4 mile and then shutting it down immediately to pull a plug. Kind of a pain in the ass... but, the only way to actually know for sure.


I have confidence in dsmlights tuning, so I know it's very close. But I also know he'd rather error on the site of caution, and is keeping things safe-ish.

I'm just gonna add 1 degree of timing at a time, keep my VCM Scanner logging Knock retard and Torque output, and drive the car. If it feels faster, I'll keep raising it until I see any KR, then back down. If it doesn't pick up power, I'll stop.

I thought in a tech forum, people would be interested in this type of tech talk. Guess not.

[swiftkart]

Maggie on E70, 14 psi, 22 deg made over 800rwhp, you can get there either way.

The main thing I've heard about a lot of boost is pushing head gaskets can become a watch items and too much timing a piston holing watch item, I'm sure there's a lot more things than these.

[fif_gen_powa]

Originally Posted by eLeSthree

Interesting. I didn't know you could read the plugs for timing info. Thought it was just for afr, and like the article points out, everyone I've ever seen doing it, was doing it wrong.

So to find the blue timing mark...
This requires a fresh set of plugs and the ability to run the car wide open for about a 1/4 mile and then shutting it down immediately to pull a plug. Kind of a pain in the ass... but, the only way to actually know for sure.


I have confidence in dsmlights tuning, so I know it's very close. But I also know he'd rather error on the site of caution, and is keeping things safe-ish.

I'm just gonna add 1 degree of timing at a time, keep my VCM Scanner logging Knock retard and Torque output, and drive the car. If it feels faster, I'll keep raising it until I see any KR, then back down. If it doesn't pick up power, I'll stop.

I thought in a tech forum, people would be interested in this type of tech talk. Guess not.

Throw a new plug in the easiest one to get to before you take the car out to do some pulls. Log knock and watch afr, after a pull just swap out the plug and note the timing mark on the strap. Doing this at the track and seeing the increase in mph/et would be best to dial it in. Sbe I'd keep it no higher than 15* range up top and 10* or so at peak torque

Originally Posted by swiftkart

Maggie on E70, 14 psi, 22 deg made over 800rwhp, you can get there either way.

The main thing I've heard about a lot of boost is pushing head gaskets can become a watch items and too much timing a piston holing watch item, I'm sure there's a lot more things than these.

Too much timing will push head gaskets too, had multiple friends have this issue, it's peak cylinder pressure that does it and boost is only part of what contributes to that. Lifting heads pushing coolant new gaskets and retune with less timing resolved it

[JMI]

We run between 20-24 with a 10-1 compression(aftermarket heads & gaskets) stock bottom end LSA with 15 psi of boost with E70-E80 range

[eLeSthree]

Thank you guys for the useful information. It seems the PD blowers can get away with more timing, but they typically run less boost.

Good idea John. I have a few extra plugs, ill give it a try and send you some pics to make sure I’m reading it right. Thanks. Now if the rain would stop...

[fif_gen_powa]

Keep in mind cylinder head and camshaft specs will change the dynamic compression ratio which will affect detonation resistance. Something I don't see talked about much https://www.enginebasics.com/Advance...20Dynamic.html

[2010_camaro]

E80 running twin 76 teriyaki tornados on 24lbs and 21* of timing.

[hillshooter]

I had tons of meth related issues at 900HP and above. its a band aid at best and I no longer run it. ESPECIALLY with stock intake. Go back a couple months and Engine masters on motor trend tested it. Its a great episode because it proved and coincided with the issues that I was having .

On E77 I would turn up the timing anyway.

[hammdo]

In my case, I run 3 HXs, 1 Intercooler, E85, and Meth (in my LSA lid - 4 ports). I would say it 'depends' on where you put the meth nozzles -- mine cover the ports vs in the 'intake':

https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showp...postcount=2191

https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showp...postcount=2192

https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showp...postcount=2193

I added 3° of timing (to 15°) in the upper range to my base tables (for meth) -- run 6° in my E85 tables. I can add 2° to 4° with meth in the base tables if I chose to.

If you watch the video (in the second link) you'll see the spray pattern and the fact they are over the manifold runners -- vs in the intake.

I like that spray pattern better since its over the IAT2 sensor and you'll at least should get a better chance of even distribution. BTW, Meth was my 'last' change and when I road race, I have a tune that does NOT use meth for fuel -- thus a safe tune and meth for cooling only while racing (since I'm between 4k and 7k RPMs most of the time).

I saw the video from Engine Masters and I do agree - the manifold is part of the issue...

-Don