Enthusiasts sleeping on Z28

[GeneRoss]

Originally Posted by FASTFATBOY

So you present "you are talking about .1 difference, on bigger tacks the Z28 will dominate" blah blah blah.

I give you examples and blow up that argument and you tap dance around and spit out more blab blah blah.

An old wise man once said "don't hold onto a mistake just because you spent a long time making it."

Hey if you like the car, fine but don't make excuses for it. I showed you an amateur driver at Barber was faster than a pro driver at Barber in your car.....you tap dance.

100K LOL, in 30 years, maybe.

I don't dislike the Z28 at all, I dislike guys like you who own them. You are like the old guy at the car show with a 62 Impala with a 283 and 4 speed "that jumps Coke cans and runs 10's stock."


But, anyway, enjoy your car. Just don't get on track with a well driven SS 1LE as your "factory bare bones race car" will get embarrassed.

The reason most in here said they bought the Z28 is because "it's a bare bones factory race car."

You have no argument. You're just trolling at this point. Different days different drivers different conditions. Surely, you cant be that dense, right? So it's 4 seconds quicker than a very similar car based on all metrics and parameters. Annnnnd it had an amateur driver behind the wheel compared to the Z/28. So you're saying the SS 1LE is like a Gen 6 ZL1 1LE or even faster lol..... this must be the most spectacular car ever produced. whoooooaaaaaaa dude.

Do me a favor go drive a Z/28 first let us know how you like it. You're wasting bandwidth at this point and making yourself look foolish.

[JayZed]

I'm going to try and bring this thread back on track to the original subject.

I have no clear answer as to why our cars have not been appreciating or appreciated more by the car enthusiasts. Although I'm glad they haven't because it has allowed me to buy one. But I have some thoughts on the issue.

Is not about their performance relative to newer cars or even cars of the same vintage. There's always gong to be something faster out there. There have been comparisons with the 350R and how one (arguably) gets more for the dollar with the Ford. I think it is different from that and I am going to suggest another comparison to make my point.

In 2000 Ford came out with the SVT Cobra R. For it's time it was a monster of a performance car but it lacked creature comforts. It had no AC, no radio, little insulation, no back seat. What it did have was a unique 5.4 L NA engine, special exhaust with s.s headers, Tremec T-56, beefed up rear end with a Geodisc hydro-mechanical differential, a lowered and stiffer suspension with Bilstein shocks and Eibsch springs, huge (for the time) Brembo brakes, special BFG track tires, manual Recaro seats, a large front splitter and a huge rear wing.

Does anything on this list sound familiar? It's like GM followed the Ford formula almost to the letter (although we have a dry sump and carbon brakes, two huge dollar items).

And here's the kicker. The price was $54,999 USD. When you adjust that to 2014 USD it comes out almost exactly to $75,000.

Ford only made 300 of them. There were rumours that they were going to make more in 2001 but that never happened. Every single one was bought, unseen, before any normal person could even see them. I didn't hear of anyone tracking these. Not even the press ran them on timed laps. But the press just loved them. There was no complaint about how expensive they were. There was no discussion about how spartan they were or how harsh they would be as a daily driver. No one complained about the lack of sound system or back-up camera or heated seats. They were designed as track weapons just as the 14-15 Z's were.

Every one of them went into someones collection and they bring big dollars today, if they ever go on sale.

So what's the point of this comparison? It's to try and have a more apples to apples look and to suggest that it isn’t the car that’s to blame, rather it’s the public perception.

Whether we like it or not, I personally think that there are way more Ford fanatics out there than Chevy fanatics (maybe Vette buyers are different). And I mean real Ford blue fanatics. There are more people prepared pay big dollars for Ford performance products than in the Chevy world. That is why the Cobra Rs were all bought as soon as they were announced, rather than languishing on dealer lots like ours did.

And Ford guys can't shut up about how great their cars are. When the first 2014 Z was driven by Jay Leno with Al Oppenhieser along, Jay was kinda luke warm on the car. But he goes on and on about his 2016 350R in other videos.

Also GM has never really marketed their performance cars to the general public. Ford has milked the whole Shelby thing forever. There have been Shelby documentaries and Shelby movies (e.g. Ford vs Ferrari), Shelby books, massive Shelby rallies, etc. Yet Shelby had as much to do with the 2016 350R and later GT500 as I did. But they still use that connection. The closest thing I can think of that GM built on was the Smokey and Bandit franchise for Pontiac. That kept Pontiac afloat for years. But there was nothing equivalent for Chev.

Ford also made a big deal with their return to Lemans. But GM had been cleaning up at Lemans with Corvette (in their class) years before, and you never heard anything about it.

Anyhow, that's my theory. Ford does a better job of marketing and (maybe as a result) there are more people prepared to buy and promote Ford performance cars. I think the Ford performance products are always going to be more popular and/or appreciate more than a Chevy, at least for the first few decades. And we can enjoy the hell out of our Chevs and run them like they were designed in the meantime.

My 2 cents.

[highrevving]

There were not many unique exterior/interior parts to differentiate Z from regular Camaro.

[Silveradoss573]

Originally Posted by JayZed

I'm going to try and bring this thread back on track to the original subject.

I have no clear answer as to why our cars have not been appreciating or appreciated more by the car enthusiasts. Although I'm glad they haven't because it has allowed me to buy one. But I have some thoughts on the issue.

Is not about their performance relative to newer cars or even cars of the same vintage. There's always gong to be something faster out there. There have been comparisons with the 350R and how one (arguably) gets more for the dollar with the Ford. I think it is different from that and I am going to suggest another comparison to make my point.

In 2000 Ford came out with the SVT Cobra R. For it's time it was a monster of a performance car but it lacked creature comforts. It had no AC, no radio, little insulation, no back seat. What it did have was a unique 5.4 L NA engine, special exhaust with s.s headers, Tremec T-56, beefed up rear end with a Geodisc hydro-mechanical differential, a lowered and stiffer suspension with Bilstein shocks and Eibsch springs, huge (for the time) Brembo brakes, special BFG track tires, manual Recaro seats, a large front splitter and a huge rear wing.

Does anything on this list sound familiar? It's like GM followed the Ford formula almost to the letter (although we have a dry sump and carbon brakes, two huge dollar items).

And here's the kicker. The price was $54,999 USD. When you adjust that to 2014 USD it comes out almost exactly to $75,000.

Ford only made 300 of them. There were rumours that they were going to make more in 2001 but that never happened. Every single one was bought, unseen, before any normal person could even see them. I didn't hear of anyone tracking these. Not even the press ran them on timed laps. But the press just loved them. There was no complaint about how expensive they were. There was no discussion about how spartan they were or how harsh they would be as a daily driver. No one complained about the lack of sound system or back-up camera or heated seats. They were designed as track weapons just as the 14-15 Z's were.

Every one of them went into someones collection and they bring big dollars today, if they ever go on sale.

So what's the point of this comparison? It's to try and have a more apples to apples look and to suggest that it isn’t the car that’s to blame, rather it’s the public perception.

Whether we like it or not, I personally think that there are way more Ford fanatics out there than Chevy fanatics (maybe Vette buyers are different). And I mean real Ford blue fanatics. There are more people prepared pay big dollars for Ford performance products than in the Chevy world. That is why the Cobra Rs were all bought as soon as they were announced, rather than languishing on dealer lots like ours did.

And Ford guys can't shut up about how great their cars are. When the first 2014 Z was driven by Jay Leno with Al Oppenhieser along, Jay was kinda luke warm on the car. But he goes on and on about his 2016 350R in other videos.

Also GM has never really marketed their performance cars to the general public. Ford has milked the whole Shelby thing forever. There have been Shelby documentaries and Shelby movies (e.g. Ford vs Ferrari), Shelby books, massive Shelby rallies, etc. Yet Shelby had as much to do with the 2016 350R and later GT500 as I did. But they still use that connection. The closest thing I can think of that GM built on was the Smokey and Bandit franchise for Pontiac. That kept Pontiac afloat for years. But there was nothing equivalent for Chev.

Ford also made a big deal with their return to Lemans. But GM had been cleaning up at Lemans with Corvette (in their class) years before, and you never heard anything about it.

Anyhow, that's my theory. Ford does a better job of marketing and (maybe as a result) there are more people prepared to buy and promote Ford performance cars. I think the Ford performance products are always going to be more popular and/or appreciate more than a Chevy, at least for the first few decades. And we can enjoy the hell out of our Chevs and run them like they were designed in the meantime.

My 2 cents.

Very well put and I agree. Also not to mention that at one time not too long ago, you had Jack Roush and Saleen heavily involved with Ford as well. Hell if I recall correctly, I think even Steeda offered a couple hopped up mustangs as well. And the SVT team at the time was full of some of the best engineers and racers. And even back in the early 2000"s, Ford dominated Chevy in terms of sales. And it had to do with the fact that Ford was out there getting it done in terms of all the different options the public had both from Ford directly or from 2nd parties with a full warranty intact, advertising was way better then Chevy no question and all the loyal followers. Add all this up and you have a recipe for success. And this type of success and commitment will resonate with the public for many years afterwards.

[highrevving]

All the Heritage Editions between GT/Mustang. Plus, Dark Horse Edition that's planned for 2024.

Ford is the master of marketing.

[FASTFATBOY]

Originally Posted by highrevving

All the Heritage Editions between GT/Mustang. Plus, Dark Horse Edition that's planned for 2024.

Ford is the master of marketing.

You guys tap dance around the issue continuously.

It's not marketing, car prices go down and stagnate because no one desires the car, no one wanted it when it was new and no one does currently.

There is no "slot" for it and never was. For the money they are currently bringing you can buy 50K mile 6th gen ZL1 non 1LE that will outperform it on every level, these cars are all over the place at this price.

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/t-Used...346414924/NONE

Will it change? Time will tell.

[SIM GhostrdrZ]

Originally Posted by FASTFATBOY

You guys tap dance around the issue continuously.

It's not marketing, car prices go down and stagnate because no one desires the car, no one wanted it when it was new and no one does currently.

There is no "slot" for it and never was. For the money they are currently bringing you can buy 50K mile 6th gen ZL1 non 1LE that will outperform it on every level, these cars are all over the place at this price.

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/t-Used...346414924/NONE

Will it change? Time will tell.

You have great points. If it were all about performance, we’d all be getting EV’s because they outperform any ICE. See you on the track with our EV’s. I’m giving my Z28 and my ZL1 away for an EV,
not!!

[Silveradoss573]

Originally Posted by FASTFATBOY

You guys tap dance around the issue continuously.

It's not marketing, car prices go down and stagnate because no one desires the car, no one wanted it when it was new and no one does currently.

There is no "slot" for it and never was. For the money they are currently bringing you can buy 50K mile 6th gen ZL1 non 1LE that will outperform it on every level, these cars are all over the place at this price.

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/t-Used...346414924/NONE

Will it change? Time will tell.

I thought when Chevy came out with the 1LE package back in 2013, Camaro owners especially those that do track day events etc. wanted a all out track car which in turn gave way to the Z28?

[aris]

I personally think the Gen 5 Z/28 is the single best Camaro ever produced, and it'll probably stay that way unless they release one with the LT6. Enthusiasts will probably eventually catch on, but it doesn't really matter.

[LateBrakeU2]

Originally Posted by JayZed

I'm going to try and bring this thread back on track to the original subject.

I have no clear answer as to why our cars have not been appreciating or appreciated more by the car enthusiasts. Although I'm glad they haven't because it has allowed me to buy one. But I have some thoughts on the issue.

Is not about their performance relative to newer cars or even cars of the same vintage. There's always gong to be something faster out there. There have been comparisons with the 350R and how one (arguably) gets more for the dollar with the Ford. I think it is different from that and I am going to suggest another comparison to make my point.

In 2000 Ford came out with the SVT Cobra R. For it's time it was a monster of a performance car but it lacked creature comforts. It had no AC, no radio, little insulation, no back seat. What it did have was a unique 5.4 L NA engine, special exhaust with s.s headers, Tremec T-56, beefed up rear end with a Geodisc hydro-mechanical differential, a lowered and stiffer suspension with Bilstein shocks and Eibsch springs, huge (for the time) Brembo brakes, special BFG track tires, manual Recaro seats, a large front splitter and a huge rear wing.

Does anything on this list sound familiar? It's like GM followed the Ford formula almost to the letter (although we have a dry sump and carbon brakes, two huge dollar items).

And here's the kicker. The price was $54,999 USD. When you adjust that to 2014 USD it comes out almost exactly to $75,000.

Ford only made 300 of them. There were rumours that they were going to make more in 2001 but that never happened. Every single one was bought, unseen, before any normal person could even see them. I didn't hear of anyone tracking these. Not even the press ran them on timed laps. But the press just loved them. There was no complaint about how expensive they were. There was no discussion about how spartan they were or how harsh they would be as a daily driver. No one complained about the lack of sound system or back-up camera or heated seats. They were designed as track weapons just as the 14-15 Z's were.

Every one of them went into someones collection and they bring big dollars today, if they ever go on sale.

So what's the point of this comparison? It's to try and have a more apples to apples look and to suggest that it isn’t the car that’s to blame, rather it’s the public perception.

Whether we like it or not, I personally think that there are way more Ford fanatics out there than Chevy fanatics (maybe Vette buyers are different). And I mean real Ford blue fanatics. There are more people prepared pay big dollars for Ford performance products than in the Chevy world. That is why the Cobra Rs were all bought as soon as they were announced, rather than languishing on dealer lots like ours did.

And Ford guys can't shut up about how great their cars are. When the first 2014 Z was driven by Jay Leno with Al Oppenhieser along, Jay was kinda luke warm on the car. But he goes on and on about his 2016 350R in other videos.

Also GM has never really marketed their performance cars to the general public. Ford has milked the whole Shelby thing forever. There have been Shelby documentaries and Shelby movies (e.g. Ford vs Ferrari), Shelby books, massive Shelby rallies, etc. Yet Shelby had as much to do with the 2016 350R and later GT500 as I did. But they still use that connection. The closest thing I can think of that GM built on was the Smokey and Bandit franchise for Pontiac. That kept Pontiac afloat for years. But there was nothing equivalent for Chev.

Ford also made a big deal with their return to Lemans. But GM had been cleaning up at Lemans with Corvette (in their class) years before, and you never heard anything about it.

Anyhow, that's my theory. Ford does a better job of marketing and (maybe as a result) there are more people prepared to buy and promote Ford performance cars. I think the Ford performance products are always going to be more popular and/or appreciate more than a Chevy, at least for the first few decades. And we can enjoy the hell out of our Chevs and run them like they were designed in the meantime.

My 2 cents.

Two reasons that really killed these,

75k window sticker
C6 Z06 was only 10k more and was released at the same time.

Glad i own one, not many out there,could care less what others think.

[aris]

Originally Posted by LateBrakeU2

Two reasons that really killed these,

75k window sticker
C6 Z06 was only 10k more and was released at the same time.

Glad i own one, not many out there,could care less what others think.

C7 Z06*


Otherwise agree with you

[ZED/28]

Originally Posted by FASTFATBOY

You guys tap dance around the issue continuously.

It's not marketing, car prices go down and stagnate because no one desires the car, no one wanted it when it was new and no one does currently.

There is no "slot" for it and never was. For the money they are currently bringing you can buy 50K mile 6th gen ZL1 non 1LE that will outperform it on every level, these cars are all over the place at this price.

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/t-Used...346414924/NONE

Will it change? Time will tell.

it's not that noone wanted them - noone wanted to pay $75k for them in 2014.
when the prices dropped, people bought them all.
GM lost $ on it.

[ZED/28]

Originally Posted by aris

C7 Z06*


Otherwise agree with you

yep and I'd take a z28 over a z06.

Corvettes do nothing for me.

I joke and say they make great donor cars for classic car LS swaps - like the donor car for my 69 LS swap

I see more Corvettes than Camaros and the Camaros most of the time are non V8 models

[JayZed]

Originally Posted by LateBrakeU2

Two reasons that really killed these,

75k window sticker
C6 Z06 was only 10k more and was released at the same time.

Glad i own one, not many out there,could care less what others think.

Agree, glad I own one too, and the high price certainly had an impact.

But the 2000 SVT Cobra was the roughly same price $54,999 ($71,000 in 2014 dollars) compared with the 2001 C5 Z06 Vette that was available mid-2000 at $50,500 ($65,000 in 2014 dollars). Yet every SVT Mustang sold before they hit the lots. But the Vette was way faster and more liveable as a daily driver and pretty special in its own right. So people had options then too but it didn't seem to matter for the Mustang sales of a very similar car to our Z's.

So I still think that marketing is the biggest factor. Everyones grandma knows how the GT350 was born. No one, except for old farts like me, know that the Z28 was simply an option code that created a homologation special that allowed Chev to compete in the SCCA Trans Am series against those same GT350 Mustangs. The Z28 was created as a street-going race car. GM never embellished that story or kept it alive, or built on it, through all of the iterations of Z's. But Ford sure milked the whole Shelby thing.