"thePill" is hard to swallow

[Doc]

Well now... after reading through all this and some of his posts on the Mustang forum it's clear that for some reason he has a chip on his shoulder against me personally. Not sure why; what was his name here on the forum?

He conveniently ignores parts of my posts about the Z/28 that do not fit his "agenda" and rants on about things taken out of context.

In my comments about the Z/28 I've talked about it being a street-legal track car which, as Zfatuated pointed out is quite different from a real race car. Race cars are not street legal for many reasons. Even if a team begins with a production car they strip it down completely and rebuild it from the ground up with everything from safety-wired fasteners to full roll-cages, fire safety systems, telemetry and other gauges, etc. none of which you'll find on a street legal production car because they're completely unnecessary.

His "points" about rules for racing which he seems to think I'm unaware of are not taking into account the other things I mentioned about the Z/28. I've said many times in my comments that there may be a new manufacturer's championship series in the works ala the original Trans Am (the Camaros and Mustangs did not compete in the Can Am series as he mentioned in one of his posts). While looking at what Chevy is doing with the Z/28 much of it seemed at odds with what appears to be its target market; HPDE and weekend racers. I noted this and also made note of Dodge announcing they're making a car to compete with the Z/28 and now Ford has reluctantly admitted they're in this game. Yet they're all holding their cards VERY close to their chest....this all seems odd to me. It looks like the big 3 are playing a huge game of poker and each of them are sitting at the table with millions of R&D dollars ready to be invested...so the stakes are high, but what game are they playing? Is all this really for HPDE and weekend racers?

The Z/28 as stated by GM is NOT "meant" for any current organized racing... Dodge and Ford are in this game now.... Do the massive development investments necessary to create cars with stripped out insulation, making custom shocks, thinner rear window glass, deleting A/C and radios, creating custom wiring harnesses, putting in cooling and track abilities that allow you to run out an entire tank of gas non-stop really sound like it's being aimed at HPDE and weekend racers? It's overkill; big-time. They could have just added an LS7 to a 1LE and made a few other improvements; brought it in for much less than a Z/28 is going to be and it would have sold well; performed beyond 98% of it's customer's abilities. There's no logical reason to do what they're doing (as well as Dodge and Ford spending this kind of development money) if it's just for HPDE and weekend racers. They already have cars that fit that bill quite nicely.

These cars don't fit anything that's current; so what kind of game are the big 3 playing here? My thought is they may be planning a new manufacturer's championship series where the rules will be what the Big 3 (and SCCA) agree they're going to be. I don't have any inside info, I'm making a purely educated guess here but to me it looks like something is in the works that they aren't talking about.... yet. They're being just as secretive about it as they are about the actual performance of these new cars they're developing. Chevy isn't done with the Z/28 yet; why not? Is all this race-level secrecy and development REALLY necessary just for HPDE and weekend racers? IMHO no. The Z/28 has been at least 2 years in development, you can be sure that Dodge and Ford didn't just suddenly decide to start their own development while watching the Z/28 announcement. They're all working on something; they're being very VERY guarded about performance and such. That kind of secrecy isn't needed for HPDE and weekend racers; it IS generally seen when involved with real racing.

I don't know what Mr. Pill's issue is but he seems to have his ego and self-esteem seriously wrapped up with whatever he's driving and who makes it. I understand the rivalry between Chevy and Ford but he seems to be taking it way too far as though the only reason why anyone beats a Ford product is if they were "lucky". Saying that Chevy won the Trans Am with the Z/28 because they got "lucky" when they found Mark Donohue as a driver was just ridiculous.

So let me make my position clear: The Z/28 as we know it so far is a track car that's street legal; it's NOT a real race car that's street legal. I believe it's going to rule in HPDE and I look forward to seeing what Dodge and Ford bring to the table. If they BOTH bring cars with carbon ceramic brakes that aren't legal in any current SCCA series that I know of, then to me that indicates something else that's new might be in the works, which has been my position for some time now. I'm hoping for a new Trans Am or something similar that will be based on these new production track cars and be a new manufacturer's championship series.

Al O and Mark Stielow are not clueless idiots; they know the rules, far more so I'm sure than Mr. Pill does. They have to build cars that meet the massive amounts of laws and regulations for the street; they know what they're doing. It makes no sense for the Big 3 to be dedicating the amount of money it's going to take to bring these cars to market if its just for low-to-no public visibility HPDE and weekend racer track events. That market is so small compared to what they'd need to recover that investment that it just doesn't make any economic sense to be doing this... UNLESS they have something else going on we don't know about... yet. The cost of consumables for tires and brakes alone on these cars is out-of-range for the average Camaro/Mustang/Dodge customer, so who are these cars really being developed for? I do not believe these cars are being developed to "rip people off". I think the next 18 months are going to be VERY interesting.

This is just my opinion and I don't have any privileged access to anything.

[2cnd chance]

Racing? That is why GM offers the "body in white" Camaro. I watch them every chance I get in the Continental Tire Series. And they are doing quite well!

[Moreno1]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Racing? That is why GM offers the "body in white" Camaro. I watch them every chance I get in the Continental Tire Series. And they are doing quite well!

watching a recording right now while working on some double integrals... LOL

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by Doc

I've said many times in my comments that there may be a new manufacturer's championship series in the works ala the original Trans Am.

THIS! would be awesome. I was hoping for the same thing, but didn't make the Z/28 connection. I also hope the Z/28 is as good as your car, Doc.

[SnoopyAce7]

So the z/28 will be too good to race SCCA ?

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Justin Moreno

watching a recording right now while working on some double integrals... LOL

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by SnoopyAce7

So the z/28 will be too good to race SCCA ?

Let's just say SCCA needs to catch up with technology. Maybe create another class.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Let's just say SCCA needs to catch up with technology. Maybe create another class.

^^this. There's a lot of big money interest involved that I'm sure would like to see the next generation of technology showcased and used on the tracks by classes other than top pros. It's time... I hope.

[MikeSVX]

The SCCA address rule and car classification changes every year. No reason to think you won't be able to use the car in some type of competition. You may have to wait a year or two for them to figure it out, though.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

THIS! would be awesome. I was hoping for the same thing, but didn't make the Z/28 connection. I also hope the Z/28 is as good as your car, Doc.

hehe well thank you for the compliment, but there are definitely things on the new Z that I wish I had for (or had the budget for) on mine. I'd love to have the trans, diff, coolers, and a few other goodies it has that mine doesn't/won't. I do have a few things I'm adding though; I've purchased a set of very light racing wheels and Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires that I'm in the process of getting set up. Trying to find a local paint shop that can paint them the way I want without charging ridiculous prices.

I also have a set of the Pfadt Tri-Y headers and cats coming as soon as they're shipping. After tune I'm guessing I'll be somewhere around 485-500 rwhp and a vehicle weight of 3650 lbs with a full tank of gas. Beyond that I'll probably get the front caliper upgrade from Racing Brake.

It's going to be real interesting to see what the final specs are going to be on the Z/28. I'm guessing they're going to be just under 3700 lbs with a full tank. I won't have much of an advantage on weight; if any. For power I'm guessing they'll be around 460 rwhp so I'll have a slight power advantage but I don't think that'll be enough to offset the 11" wide Trofeos the Z has; the Z will definitely have me on cornering power and grip. It's going to have a better fueling and oiling system for the engine. Suspension geometry looks to be revised and most likely will be better than my 2010 SS.

HOWEVER, that being said... I still have A/C, sound deadening in the cabin, full stereo system and mine will be quite a bit more comfortable on the street. But I think in a head-to-head contest on the track the Z/28 will out-corner mine. I would LOVE to have mine up at Laguna Seca and have Randy Pobst do a comparison to the new Z/28 when it comes out. It would be interesting to see what mine would do in the hands of a real pro.

[right to travel]

Originally Posted by Doc

I've said many times in my comments that there may be a new manufacturer's championship series in the works ala the original Trans Am (the Camaros and Mustangs did not compete in the Can Am series as he mentioned in one of his posts).

These cars don't fit anything that's current; so what kind of game are the big 3 playing here? My thought is they may be planning a new manufacturer's championship series where the rules will be what the Big 3 (and SCCA) agree they're going to be. I don't have any inside info, I'm making a purely educated guess here but to me it looks like something is in the works that they aren't talking about.... yet. They're being just as secretive about it as they are about the actual performance of these new cars they're developing. Chevy isn't done with the Z/28 yet; why not? Is all this race-level secrecy and development REALLY necessary just for HPDE and weekend racers? IMHO no. The Z/28 has been at least 2 years in development, you can be sure that Dodge and Ford didn't just suddenly decide to start their own development while watching the Z/28 announcement. They're all working on something; they're being very VERY guarded about performance and such. That kind of secrecy isn't needed for HPDE and weekend racers; it IS generally seen when involved with real racing.

I'm hoping for a new Trans Am or something similar that will be based on these new production track cars and be a new manufacturer's championship series.

UNLESS they have something else going on we don't know about... yet. The cost of consumables for tires and brakes alone on these cars is out-of-range for the average Camaro/Mustang/Dodge customer, so who are these cars really being developed for? I do not believe these cars are being developed to "rip people off". I think the next 18 months are going to be VERY interesting.

Hey Doc you don't think your theory could have anything to do with this place do you lol???????

http://www.motorsportspark.org/

[Doc]

Originally Posted by right to travel

Hey Doc you don't think your theory could have anything to do with this place do you lol???????

http://www.motorsportspark.org/

Wow that could very well be; timing is just about right. What a great layout...I would LOVE to drive that full course. Too bad it's being built in Kentucky and not closer to me.

[right to travel]

i wonder where ford and mopar will put their tracks

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by Doc

HOWEVER, that being said... I still have A/C, sound deadening in the cabin, full stereo system and mine will be quite a bit more comfortable on the street. But I think in a head-to-head contest on the track the Z/28 will out-corner mine. I would LOVE to have mine up at Laguna Seca and have Randy Pobst do a comparison to the new Z/28 when it comes out. It would be interesting to see what mine would do in the hands of a real pro.

Subscribing to that thread. Do it. Other than suspension manufacturer shop cars are there any other private street Camaros on here that could match up? A run off with a pro driver would be really interesting. And include a modded ZL1 just to see. And please do this at the NJ Motorsports park. (Too far I know.) FbodFather are you listening?

I would bet more than one GM employee has eyeballed your build thread for ideas and results. Also your car would be a great pattern for the SEMA show car version of the upcoming Mark Donohue edition Z/28.