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Old 02-15-2024, 08:08 AM   #1
m6-lt1

 
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S197 GT500 vs 6th Gen SS/SS 1le

Anyone own an s197 GT500 (any year, Iím aware of all the differences between 07-09, 10, 11-12, and 13-14) and go to a 6th Gen SS or SS 1le? Or if you have both could someone tell me what they liked better about each car? Lately Iíve been thinking maybe I made the wrong choice going from an SS to an SS 1le and have been considering selling my car for a 13/14 GT500. Appreciate any input I get!
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Old 02-15-2024, 09:12 AM   #2
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Anyone own an s197 GT500 (any year, Iím aware of all the differences between 07-09, 10, 11-12, and 13-14) and go to a 6th Gen SS or SS 1le? Or if you have both could someone tell me what they liked better about each car? Lately Iíve been thinking maybe I made the wrong choice going from an SS to an SS 1le and have been considering selling my car for a 13/14 GT500. Appreciate any input I get!
I'm just trying to understand why you would want a 13/14 GT 500 aside from the power? That platform really underperformed and it was constantly heatsoaked even after about 2-3 laps compared to the 5th gen Z/28 in a 3 lap road course race.

While I've not personally owned the GT500, I've ridden/driven several and have many friends with modded S197 GTs.

Truthfully, I can certainly understand perhaps regretting the 1LE just because it's more road course oriented versus a drag style car. Is that what you're looking for here?
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Old 02-15-2024, 09:22 AM   #3
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I can't answer that but I might offer a suggestion if you are in that market you might look into a 5th gen ZL1. I was mostly focused on one of those but then I decided on reliability and abilities and market prices it was a better option. If you are set on the Mustang then other things won't influence your decision.
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Old 02-15-2024, 11:06 AM   #4
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I'm just trying to understand why you would want a 13/14 GT 500 aside from the power? That platform really underperformed and it was constantly heatsoaked even after about 2-3 laps compared to the 5th gen Z/28 in a 3 lap road course race.

While I've not personally owned the GT500, I've ridden/driven several and have many friends with modded S197 GTs.

Truthfully, I can certainly understand perhaps regretting the 1LE just because it's more road course oriented versus a drag style car. Is that what you're looking for here?
Hey thanks for asking. I'll start by saying I currently have at minimum 3 road course days planned/booked for this year. I just got through break in so I have not done any in my current car. If I were to get a GT500 it definitely would not be roadcoursed. I am aware that it is a terrible platform for that.

I am regretting the 1LE a little bit for two reasons:

1) It's my first new car. I am very easily affording it however I feel like I bet "wrong" and a new car was not the smart way to go. Originally when used cars went up in value I predicted that they would fall by mid to late 2023. Unfortunately at some point last year I decided my prediction would be incorrect and that the market would stay as is. Well turns out my original prediction was correct. The market is now really low on my car (all used cars). Had I waited I could have purchased a used 6th Gen ZL1. I've never been one to eat the depreciation on a new car so that is why I am considering getting rid of the car if I can find a buyer willing to meet my price.

2) Last week I somehow remembered being blown away by the torque of my first 6th gen SS I owned. That car actually got me into roadcoursing because of how damn good this platform is at that. Of course me being a car guy I am now used to the LT1. I thought I would be okay buying a car that isn't an upgrade in a straight line but I was wrong. I want that feeling again of being blown away by the torque of the car I'm driving. I always felt the 1LE is underpowered. The chassis is so good GM did this car wrong by not giving this car another 50 - 100 hp. GM guys can hate Ford all they want but this is something Ford kicks GM's ass at. The boss 302, GT350, Mach 1, Dark Horse are all handling specialty Mustangs that received a HP bump. The 1LE and Grandsport just have the base V8 with no power added.

I thought about modding but I've seen too many issues with modded cars on this forum. I just feel like if I were to get back into modding cars again the Ford platforms are 10000% easier to make power out of and more reliable (GT350 aside).

I seem to be really craving more power AND the muscle car feeling again. The 6th gen camaro is sooo good there's just no drama when you plant your foot. It just hooks up and goes. I kinda like the s197's nature to spin the wheels a bunch before it goes haha. I miss the muscle car feeling I guess.

I also acknowledge that I'll probably get used to the GT500's HP but I'd only be a pulley swap away from 100 more HP. I may forget craving more power after my first track day in June because of how magical this platform with the FE4 suspension is but if used prices rise back up in spring it will be very hard for me not to list my car for sale. With the GT500, I know the only depreciation that car will see is due to miles as I don't believe that car will go down in price any further due to its age. I only drive my fun cars about 3-4k miles a year.

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I can't answer that but I might offer a suggestion if you are in that market you might look into a 5th gen ZL1. I was mostly focused on one of those but then I decided on reliability and abilities and market prices it was a better option. If you are set on the Mustang then other things won't influence your decision.
Thank you for the suggestion but I always preferred the S197's to the 5th Gen ZL1. They have better power to weight ratios and the platform I feel is more muscle car like than the zeta platform is in Zl1 form. That's not a knock by the way as I'm implying the zeta platform in zl1 form is a better handling sports car than the S197 GT500.
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Old 02-15-2024, 12:38 PM   #5
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Hey thanks for asking. I'll start by saying I currently have at minimum 3 road course days planned/booked for this year. I just got through break in so I have not done any in my current car. If I were to get a GT500 it definitely would not be roadcoursed. I am aware that it is a terrible platform for that.
The current 1LE SS is actually just about identical in terms of the 5th gen Z/28 on tracks (for the most part) so it's actually a fantastic car for it.

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I am regretting the 1LE a little bit for two reasons:

1) It's my first new car. I am very easily affording it however I feel like I bet "wrong" and a new car was not the smart way to go. Originally when used cars went up in value I predicted that they would fall by mid to late 2023. Unfortunately at some point last year I decided my prediction would be incorrect and that the market would stay as is. Well turns out my original prediction was correct. The market is now really low on my car (all used cars). Had I waited I could have purchased a used 6th Gen ZL1. I've never been one to eat the depreciation on a new car so that is why I am considering getting rid of the car if I can find a buyer willing to meet my price.
So I can actually understand this part, but I also would say that any ZL1 that you would get in a similar price range is still going to be almost certainly out of warranty/possibly beat to hell. I mean, I've seen 2-3 year old cars going for new car prices in many areas, so I can't say I've seen what you've seen. Now, if you're just looking for a track car, you would probably be correct in saying you'd have found something probably better/cheaper.

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2) Last week I somehow remembered being blown away by the torque of my first 6th gen SS I owned. That car actually got me into roadcoursing because of how damn good this platform is at that. Of course me being a car guy I am now used to the LT1. I thought I would be okay buying a car that isn't an upgrade in a straight line but I was wrong. I want that feeling again of being blown away by the torque of the car I'm driving. I always felt the 1LE is underpowered. The chassis is so good GM did this car wrong by not giving this car another 50 - 100 hp. GM guys can hate Ford all they want but this is something Ford kicks GM's ass at. The boss 302, GT350, Mach 1, Dark Horse are all handling specialty Mustangs that received a HP bump. The 1LE and Grandsport just have the base V8 with no power added.

I thought about modding but I've seen too many issues with modded cars on this forum. I just feel like if I were to get back into modding cars again the Ford platforms are 10000% easier to make power out of and more reliable (GT350 aside).

I seem to be really craving more power AND the muscle car feeling again. The 6th gen camaro is sooo good there's just no drama when you plant your foot. It just hooks up and goes. I kinda like the s197's nature to spin the wheels a bunch before it goes haha. I miss the muscle car feeling I guess.

I also acknowledge that I'll probably get used to the GT500's HP but I'd only be a pulley swap away from 100 more HP. I may forget craving more power after my first track day in June because of how magical this platform with the FE4 suspension is but if used prices rise back up in spring it will be very hard for me not to list my car for sale. With the GT500, I know the only depreciation that car will see is due to miles as I don't believe that car will go down in price any further due to its age. I only drive my fun cars about 3-4k miles a year.
Now, in this respect, I get it. I owned a 2018 ZL1, wanted a little more oomph, decided to sell it during COVID, and went up to a Redeye Challenger. More power, more power, more whine, and then it became gotta watch out for every puddle of water, can't take the ramps at certain speeds, and forget about traction most days....

There are always issues modding any car truthfully. Some get lucky, some don't, and some find minor issues no matter what they do. I bought my then new 2018 ZL1 and within the first 5500 miles I had to replace the Supercharger blow off valve, the ECM, and the oil pump....

The 6th gen Camaro is arguably one of the greatest performance platforms you can find in any car for the money. It's well balanced, it handles both power and drives like a champ to boot. You are right though, it's not as in your face burn out like those older cars (5th Gen Z/28, ZL1, GT 500, Hellcats).

Based on what I'm hearing you're probably better off just selling the 1LE and going after the older car. Or, perhaps consider selling it and trying to find a slightly used ZL1...

I'm now back in a 23 ZL1 so I can tell you the platform is WELL worth it
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Old 02-15-2024, 01:40 PM   #6
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The current 1LE SS is actually just about identical in terms of the 5th gen Z/28 on tracks (for the most part) so it's actually a fantastic car for it.



So I can actually understand this part, but I also would say that any ZL1 that you would get in a similar price range is still going to be almost certainly out of warranty/possibly beat to hell. I mean, I've seen 2-3 year old cars going for new car prices in many areas, so I can't say I've seen what you've seen. Now, if you're just looking for a track car, you would probably be correct in saying you'd have found something probably better/cheaper.



Now, in this respect, I get it. I owned a 2018 ZL1, wanted a little more oomph, decided to sell it during COVID, and went up to a Redeye Challenger. More power, more power, more whine, and then it became gotta watch out for every puddle of water, can't take the ramps at certain speeds, and forget about traction most days....

There are always issues modding any car truthfully. Some get lucky, some don't, and some find minor issues no matter what they do. I bought my then new 2018 ZL1 and within the first 5500 miles I had to replace the Supercharger blow off valve, the ECM, and the oil pump....

The 6th gen Camaro is arguably one of the greatest performance platforms you can find in any car for the money. It's well balanced, it handles both power and drives like a champ to boot. You are right though, it's not as in your face burn out like those older cars (5th Gen Z/28, ZL1, GT 500, Hellcats).

Based on what I'm hearing you're probably better off just selling the 1LE and going after the older car. Or, perhaps consider selling it and trying to find a slightly used ZL1...

I'm now back in a 23 ZL1 so I can tell you the platform is WELL worth it
Thanks for your perspective on the red eye and 18 zl1. I can see the same issues occurring with the gt500 as you had with the red eye. It could get old having to fight traction all the time.

I agree that any used zl1 in the price range of a new 23 2ss 1le would have had some miles and issues BUT I could have upped my budget another 10k. If GM hadnít risen the msrp of the 2023ís, thereís a strong chance Iíd just be in a zl1. I also screwed up and misunderstood what my financial advisor was telling me to do with my investments and found out after the fact I could have in fact ordered a 23 zl1

At that time 2019-2021 zl1ís were going for the price of new and I was not going to pay that. What I see now though is low 60ís-69k and thatís BEFORE negotiations. ALL sports cars are sitting right now so Iím sure I could have gotten dealers to knock off a couple grand. Those would have warranty still and I would have extended the warranties.

Right now Iím seeing mid 50ís for 13/14 gt500ís which are 10k above year 2019 prices however Iím confident I could get them to knock off 2-3k. Low 50ís for that much power is pretty good. While I could get a 17/18 zl1 for that amount I do not trust those year zl1ís and you mentioned the oil pump happened to yours so Iím sure you understand my hesitation. Plus Iím now used to the 19+ interior so Iíd hate to go backwards in the ďsame carĒ. I know if I were to offer my car on trade towards a 13/14 gt500 Iíd only get 44k max (I have 1700 miles only). Msrp was a hair under 55k. Thatís just too big a loss to take in only 6 months.

Fall 2022 it looked like car prices were correcting but they came back with a vengeance in spring 2023. Thatís why I thought we were staying in that market. This past fall they corrected harder so I donít believe they will get much higher in spring this year. Weíll see. If it comes back strong enough Iíll list my car for sale. Iíve always been a horsepower guy and do think Iíd be happier in the gt500. Looks are a wash. My SS 1le is a better car in every way except the power and exhaust note.
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Old 02-20-2024, 10:11 AM   #7
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Two choices better than a 13/14 GT500: buy a lightly used low mileage alpha ZL1, or put a Whipple on the 1LE with low boost, 600 whp, both will have supercar handling and good power.
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Old 02-20-2024, 11:32 AM   #8
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Two choices better than a 13/14 GT500: buy a lightly used low mileage alpha ZL1, or put a Whipple on the 1LE with low boost, 600 whp, both will have supercar handling and good power.
Thanks for the suggestion. Price wise alpha ZL1ís that are priced the same as 13/14 GT500ís are the 17/18ís. I really donít want to spend 50+ thousand and then drop another 3k on an oil pump since 17/18ís are susceptible to oil pump issues.

Iíve seen too many modded LT1ís on this board have issues. I just donít think the GM platforms are as reliable as the Ford platforms once you begin to mod. If I did mod I believe a Heads Cam SS 1le would be one of the most fun cars but I just donít think I want to deal with the maintenance of a heads cam car.

The other thing is I kind of miss having a ďmuscleĒ car. The alpha platform cars are so good that it gets boring driving them unless youíre on a race track. At least thatís how I personally feel. Thereís just no drama when you put your foot down. Iím sure the ZL1 has more drama than the SS 1LE but Iíd be willing to bet not as much as the s197 GT500.

I bought my SS 1le with the intention of doing 3-5 track days per year. First one is 6/1. I realize now I bought the wrong car because 99% of my driving is street driving. If the market picks back up this spring Iím going to try to sell the car before 6/1. Iím willing to take a small loss on the car but not the same size loss as trading it in. My heart is pretty set on the 13/14 GT500. I love higher HP cars. You can use the HP safely on an empty road but you canít use the handling prowess of a car with high handling limits on the street. The GT500 was a bucket list car for me and I might kick myself down the road if I donít scoop one up when I have the opportunity too.
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Old 02-20-2024, 01:51 PM   #9
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You’ve got to be joking about fords being cheaper/more reliable than the GM platforms for modding right? Really not trying to be a jerk here but that is the calling card of the LS/LT platforms, how bullet proof they are. I realize the LT’s are more expensive to mod than the LS stuff is but fords over head cam motors are a problem filled joke all the way around.

They are well known for dropping valves among other things in stock form and not that’s not just the GT350’s. Hell even the Godzilla 7.3 gas truck motors that went back to pushrods are eating cams left and right in stock form. You say you don’t want a modded car but then say you could slap a pulley on the GT 500 and make another 100HP?
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Old 02-20-2024, 02:38 PM   #10
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^Yeah I tried to tell him the LSA ZL1 would give him the experience he desires in a reliable drivetrain except some chance of strut problems or or HVAC blend door problems, at a good price. They have not been depreciating in years now. Stuck on an old Mustang that sells for $10k more and less fast or reliable. It won't matter because the point is moot because used car values aren't going to jump up where a 23 Camaro will not take a big used-car hit anytime soon allowing for a proposed sale to get something different.
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Old 02-20-2024, 02:45 PM   #11
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Youíve got to be joking about fords being cheaper/more reliable than the GM platforms for modding right? Really not trying to be a jerk here but that is the calling card of the LS/LT platforms, how bullet proof they are. I realize the LTís are more expensive to mod than the LS stuff is but fords over head cam motors are a problem filled joke all the way around.

They are well known for dropping valves among other things in stock form and not thatís not just the GT350ís. Hell even the Godzilla 7.3 gas truck motors that went back to pushrods are eating cams left and right in stock form. You say you donít want a modded car but then say you could slap a pulley on the GT 500 and make another 100HP?
Not joking at all. I have only seen a coyote or modular motor drop a valve on very very few occasions. They also donít have lifter problems like the LTX. Not saying it doesnít happen, but it seems less prevalent versus the lsx/LTX platform. If the LS7 wasnít so susceptible to valve drops a c6 z06 would be in my garage, no questions asked. Thatís one of my bucket list cars as well annd my favorite engine from a performance perspective. In fact Iíd argue itís the greatest NA motor of all time from that perspective.

You are correct itís way too expensive to mod the LTX platform. You want boost? Itís best you do drop in pistons because the piston ring end gaps are too tight from the factory and Iíve seen too many examples of them kissing on here. E85 helps but unfortunately that isnít around in my neck of the woods. You want to go heads cam? Unless we do the labor ourselves a proper heads cam intake and exhaust setup will run you roughly 12k from a name brand shop. Youíll make between 550-600 whp. That is a Badass NA setup for sure but that 12k can get you 650+ in a boosted coyote. If I had a 5th Gen like you I probably would at some point do a heads cam setup. Way more economical in those cars than the 6th Gen platform. I believe the 5th Gen and lsx platform to be way more mod friendly than the LTX. I like the LSA as well if my goal was a big HP number.

You might be right about the Godzilla motor (havenít even learned much about it) but Iím not even considering buying a car and dropping that in. I just mentioned the thing about a pulley swap in the GT500 because itís a very mild and cheap upgrade if I again get used to the power and want more. My goal is to not have to mod. My SS 1le feels very underpowered from the factory mainly because the chassis is that good and Iím just too used to the LT1 at this point.
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Old 02-20-2024, 03:37 PM   #12
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^Yeah I tried to tell him the LSA ZL1 would give him the experience he desires in a reliable drivetrain except some chance of strut problems or or HVAC blend door problems, at a good price. They have not been depreciating in years now. Stuck on an old Mustang that sells for $10k more and less fast or reliable. It won't matter because the point is moot because used car values aren't going to jump up where a 23 Camaro will not take a big used-car hit anytime soon allowing for a proposed sale to get something different.
13/14 gt500 is faster than a 5th Gen zl1 in a straight line. I acknowledged earlier that the chassis is better in the 5th Gen zl1. Also didnít they have some kind of supercharger issue? Friend of mine had one and I think i remember she had to get some type of work done on the supercharger. I believe there was a tsb for it too. That was like 10 years ago so I could be mistaken.

I get it, this is a Chevy site so youíll automatically think everything Ford makes is unreliable. I spend time on both boards and I personally see more issues here. Maybe you and Aqua have seen more issues with Mustangs but I personally have seen more issues with the LTX platform (not the LSX platform). Iím not going to argue any further about who has seen what. We all have our experiences and unfortunately for me I have seen more reliability issues with modded cars here than there. My bone stock 2016 1SS had enough issues to where I made money from the extended warranty I bought.

One thing I can agree with you on is that this probably wonít happen because Iím not willing to take a 10k loss in 6 months of ownership only. Only thing Iím wondering is if the dealers that are asking msrp or close to msrp for lightly used 1-2 year old 1leís are actually getting it. Iím willing to take a loss unlike most of the folks trying to sell their cars in the classifieds section here, just not 10k in 6 months (trade in value for my 23 with 1700 miles). If it doesnít happen then Iíll just go as planned and track my 1le across America as that is why I bought it.
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Old 02-20-2024, 05:06 PM   #13
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I forgot about that puck to drive the supercharger because it's a $20 part you can change yourself. Yes if you wait for it to rattle a lot they will just replace the entire supercharger not the coupler on the snout.
Ok, we won't talk about hp with a pulley and E85 like you mentioned before. Or reliability. BTW the 2016 isn't the 5th and I wasn't talking about the lifter problems of the L99 or timing chains on the V6s or 6ths so I understand there are sore spots.
The loss buying a new car sucks. I posted a chart but that doesn't include the 8or9% sales tax we might be paying and expensive license fees OR dealer markup over MSRP which are all totally lost costs so that can add another 5k or much more into the already $10k depreciation costs. Flipping a new car simply sucks financially. They give you less on a trade in but you aren't taxed on the value of your car so can come out ahead with say 2k less outright price but 3k tax savings...


As far as dealers asking inflated prices on everything yes, they do get them. They might play some trade in math to either lower the trade in value or car sale price but mostly they are looking to screw you with maintenance plans and extended warranties and high % loans and everyway they can. I had to go far out of town and a different no-dealer manufacturer to avoid it on my last cars. One out of town dealer I still had to put up with the bs pushing all the way along the sale as they juggle you to this and that special person.

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Old 02-20-2024, 05:36 PM   #14
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The loss buying a new car sucks. I posted a chart but that doesn't include the 8or9% sales tax we might be paying and expensive license fees OR dealer markup over MSRP which are all totally lost costs so that can add another 5k or much more into the already $10k depreciation costs. Flipping a new car simply sucks financially. They give you less on a trade in but you aren't taxed on the value of your car so can come out ahead with say 2k less outright price but 3k tax savings...


As far as dealers asking inflated prices on everything yes, they do get them. They might play some trade in math to either lower the trade in value or car sale price but mostly they are looking to screw you with maintenance plans and extended warranties and high % loans and everyway they can. I had to go far out of town and a different no-dealer manufacturer to avoid it on my last cars. One out of town dealer I still had to put up with the bs pushing all the way along the sale as they juggle you to this and that special person.
Fortunately I bought at a not so crazy time 8/23. Paid below msrp and no add ins. Yes they tried hard to get me to purchase the extended warranty. If I wasnít so power hungry I actually would have because the one on my 16 I made money from. Iíll admit I get bent over pretty hard on the trade in but I had a worst case number in my head and they met it. Just didnít feel like dealing with the private sale at that time.

I did the math and unfortunately the tax offset is barely a difference this time around. Would definitely make out better if someone where to buy my car for 5-6k off msrp. Right now used values are terrible just like they historically are. From about mid August-mid February values continue to drop. Then as spring approaches the values actually go up even though the cars are technically older. Source? My dadís a dealer. I analyzed the used car auction sale data I have access to and he wasnít wrong. So I do think I have an opportunity to dump my 1le this spring/summer and try to scoop up a GT500 in fall/winter. But weíll see. My first track day is 6/1. If the cars not gone by then I will attend and that may make me decide not to get rid of it.
__________________
Current: 2023 2SS 1LE

Prior:
2016 Camaro 1SS
2007 Mustang GT
2008 Civic Si
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