Z28 swap for Racing Brake Forged Calipers with Sintered Brake Pads and Carbon Ceramic

[Fusionofideas]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

The braking in factory form on the Z is quite good. Why not just change pads?

Correct that OEM is good, the "Stiffness" and "Rigidity" is really what we are looking for, OE Monoblock is more for mfg cost reduction than those advertised advantage.

OE is made by mass production, so the body is "Cast" one piece, while RacingBrake calipers are "Forged" aluminum alloy with two halves assembled together with 12.9 grade alloy steel bolt.

Stiffer & more rigid calipers can deliver a stronger and more consistent brake torque than less rigid body (OE) which means higher braking efficiency and also can eliminate pad taper wear and extend pad life. Average track driver may not feel the difference, but the discriminating and competing drivers would.

[Fusionofideas]

Originally Posted by frenchsquared

That would imply the pads wont work on the current calipers. Otherwise JusticPete's question still stands.

The Racing Brake Sintered Metallic pads will work with OEM Brembo Calipers. We actually used the pads first with the OE calipers and there was a noticeable difference compared to stock pad. It felt like a 50% increase in braking power. We made the switch to the Racing Brake Caliper for a stronger and more consistent brake torque than less rigid body (OE) which means higher braking efficiency and also can eliminate pad taper wear and extend pad life. The metallic pads also are claimed to enhance the life of the Carbon Ceramic Rotor. I have seen this already after two track events where the fracturing is now "cured" and the rotor is smooth from the deposits of the metallic pad.

[JusticePete]

Brembo spends more money on R&D annually than all other brake companies combined. Their testing facilities are amazing. The only thing I have seen that is similar is at Roush Engineering. In development of the Z/28, the CC rotors with OE calipers generated so much braking force, they were spinning the tires on the wheels. The only complaints about the factory Z/28 package have been curb weight and RWHP.

Searching for a better pad, I get it.
Searching for a better caliper... every racer wants every advantage they can find so why not.

[Fusionofideas]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Brembo spends more money on R&D annually than all other brake companies combined. Their testing facilities are amazing. The only thing I have seen that is similar is at Roush Engineering. In development of the Z/28, the CC rotors with OE calipers generated so much braking force, they were spinning the tires on the wheels. The only complaints about the factory Z/28 package have been curb weight and RWHP.

Searching for a better pad, I get it.
Searching for a better caliper... every racer wants every advantage they can find so why not.

[RacingBrake]

More up-to-date testimonial from GTR community.
http://www.gtrheritage.com/topic/671...ke#entry124001

A revolutionary sintered brake pad developed by RacingBrake.

Not only it can deliver a very high COF (0.65) with consistent brake torque under higher temperature (than irons) when run CCM brakes, but it can actually heal and restore the damaged CCM discs.

Rotor surface condition (pitted due to heat stress and carbon oxidation) prior to sintered pad was deployed.





After use (street and track) with transfer of layer from brake pads.






These are not magic show, it's a proven result with 16 month of development and countless track and street tests on ZR1, GTR and Z28.

Discussion on GTR forum.
http://www.gtrheritage.com/topic/671...cmcarbon-pads/

http://www.gtrheritage.com/topic/635...ke#entry113545

[frenchsquared]

Im really interested in this but I am scared to try anything other then factory. I cannot afford to do this stuff twice. its all I can do to afford to keep tires under this car. It to the point that I am looking at buying other light cars that do not cost $1,000 a day to track.

How long do these pads last compared to stock when run on stock rotors?
What are these pads costing?
How certain is everyone that these pads help rotor life?

Honestly, I don't care if they stop better. I have to reduce the cost of driving this car. I am fine with something stopping less. I got this car cause I thought it would be less then repairing my old vette all the time. Its not... I can put a new LS1 in every year for what this car cost in consumables.

[kramard]

Originally Posted by RacingBrake

More up-to-date testimonial from GTR community.
http://www.gtrheritage.com/topic/671...ke#entry124001

A revolutionary sintered brake pad developed by RacingBrake.

Not only it can deliver a very high COF (0.65) with consistent brake torque under higher temperature (than irons) when run CCM brakes, but it can actually heal and restore the damaged CCM discs.

Rotor surface condition (pitted due to heat stress and carbon oxidation) prior to sintered pad was deployed.





After use (street and track) with transfer of layer from brake pads.






These are not magic show, it's a proven result with 16 month of development and countless track and street tests on ZR1, GTR and Z28.

Discussion on GTR forum.
http://www.gtrheritage.com/topic/671...cmcarbon-pads/

http://www.gtrheritage.com/topic/635...ke#entry113545

This is interesting - couple of questions -

1) is it ok to switch to the sintered pad once the rotors become ruff and are starting to increase brake pad wear or is that too late?

2) what type of wear rates are you seeing for this pad? Does it wear the same or half as much as a stock pad?

3) any data you can share on how many pad changes you get to a set of these rotors or how many times you've changed pads on a set of rotors?

Thanks!

[RacingBrake]

Answer to the question from a Porsche owner in rennlilst forum might be helpful here.

Originally Posted by CAlexio

This is truly amazing stuff.. can you provide more info RB?

-Does the transfer material keep improving the brake over time then?
-Does the material transferred work as well as a new CCM disk?
-do the brakes using this pad just not wear out then?

Lots of questions..

The friction couple (pad and rotor) compatibility is very important in the performance of all brake systems, not only carbon ceramic. However since CCM rotors generate much more heat than conventional iron (due to its lighter weight), so it's even more crucial in carbon ceramic application.

To achieve a healthy braking operation it's necessary to transfer a layer from the pad surface on to the rotor face. For iron rotors (with semi-metallic pads) this usually can be achieved with careful selection of iron rotor material and brake pad compound.

However since the CCM rotors brake is running at a higher (~30%) temperature level than iron so using conventional semi-metallic pad becomes challenging due to the temperature limit of resin that holds the friction ingredient together. Resin is of plastic nature so when the pad is heated up it becomes soft and starts losing its binding strength, that's when you feel brake fade and notice resin emitted to rotor surface with uneven/un-unifor layers (bad deposit) that will cause vibration and other ill effect.

Sintered pad on the other hand, uses no resin, and is of full (100%) metallic, it's composed of various metallic powder. Those powder were compressed together under extremely high pressure, under very high temperature, takes days to cure and form together with the steel backing plate which is made of high tensile strength alloy steel so they for more resistant to deformation (warping) under repeated heat cycles.

During bed-in process the sintered pad starts transferring a very "uniform" layers (good deposit) over to rotor surface which also forming a protective coat on rotor surface, from thereon the friction is taken place between the deposit layers between the pad and rotor surface.

If a CCM rotor is already damaged (pitted-rough surface) due to the heat stress & incompatible pads, after bedding in with sintered pad, those surface will begin to heal, and eventually the metallic layer will smooth out the entire disc surface (including drill holes), we used dial gauge to check run out on those healed surface and the run out is within the tolerance of .00013"

During this rotor surface healing (patching) process you will notice the pad will wear out faster than normal, but after the rotor surface is restored not only the rotor life is to be prolonged, but the pad wear rate will become normal.

[RacingBrake]

Originally Posted by kramard

This is interesting - couple of questions -

1) is it ok to switch to the sintered pad once the rotors become ruff and are starting to increase brake pad wear or is that too late?

2) what type of wear rates are you seeing for this pad? Does it wear the same or half as much as a stock pad?

3) any data you can share on how many pad changes you get to a set of these rotors or how many times you've changed pads on a set of rotors?

Thanks!

1. Yes, the sintered pad can repair the damaged rotors (pitted surface) as the pictures show, during this healing process the sinterd pad will naturally wear out faster due to friction material transfer to rotor, but wear rate will become normal once the repairing process is completed.

2 & 3. See below

Below is a review on RB sintered pads posted on GTR forum:

http://www.gtrheritage.com/topic/635.../?hl=+sintered
----------------------------------------------------------------
Warren-RB, on 08 Jul 2016 - 4:41 PM, said:

When it comes to evaluating a brake pad, I think following criteria are what most of us are looking for:

1. Initial bite
2. Coefficient of Friction (COF) level
3. Consistency of brake torque (w/o being affected by elevated temperature)
4. Responsiveness to the brake pedal
5. Modulation and brake control
6. Durability
7. Wearing pattern

As a comparison we have tested on Pagid, Endless, C-L and OE pads - All are supposed to be made for Carbon Ceramic Rotors.

I will let Ron make his comments about how these new pads were tested and evaluated and answer any questions you might have.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------werks, on 08 Jul 2016 - 6:54 PM, said:Yep guys I've been testing these including hammering on them at a private test day at Thunderhil on the 5 mile track where the tack was just open all day with no run groups. That day alone I put over 50 gallons of fuel through the car beating on them and I can say that the pads worked flawlessly! Warren touched on some of the key points of the new pad material but they are:

1. Intial Bite. This pad material offers significantly more inital bite than OEM especially when cold or on cold tires. With cold R7's it only requires moderate brake pressure to get ABS to kick in and once the tires come up to temp bite is perfect.

2. COF. I'll let Warren get into all of the numbers and what not because honestly testing and going back and forth comparing stuff I really do not want to know so that it is almost like a blind test. All that I can say is that it feels like there is quite a bit more not only initial bite as mentioned above but also overall maximum braking force available! It's like taking the OEM pads and adding about 20% more stopping power to them!

3. Consistency of Brake Torque. There is zero fade with these pads and pedal pressure and brake force seemingly stays consistent no matter how hard you push the brakes. I never really had issues with OEM but with these I did not even think about the brakes and also the pedal seemed to stay harder, while with OEM after hammering on them it felt like the pedal would get a little spongy at the end of the session.

4. Responsiveness to the brake pedal.
5. Modulation and brake control.

I really think that 4 & 5 go hand in hand so I'm lumping them together. The big issue that I have with OEM pads is the the braking feels almost "digital" meaning that it's either "on or off" and when it's "on" it full brakes, when it's off it's fully "off" and there are no brakes. There is no mid point, there is no ability to modulate well. Not with these lol! It's totally different, you can easily trail brake into corners and feel the difference in braking force even with the slightest adjustment of pedal pressure! It's truly night and day different! Also when aproaching full brake, the harder you push the more brakes you get. Maximum pedal pressure required is higher than OEM but maximum braking force then acheived is also much higher than OEM.

6. Durability. No question about it, on my car I get about 35-40% less wear on these than OEM. A very considerable boost in pad life!

7. Wear pattern. Pad taper was also less than OEM. I know this is really dictated by caliper flex but I'm guessing that as the material wears less than OEM we are also seeing less tapered wear also.

Overall I can not say enough about how pleased I am with how these pads have ended up turning out to be. As I mentioned to Warren we spent over a year working on nothing but compound and material testing and while it has been a lot of work the ultimate product I think far exceeds any expectations that I had going into this!

To give you some feedback on lap times that we were pushing the brakes under at T-hil I was in the 3:03 range which is quite fast there. I also had my buddy test my car with these pads who took 3rd overal at last years Optima Street Car Challenge Finals in Vegas and took 1st at the First Optima Challenge Race this year, so yes he is smoking fast! He loved the brakes and mentioned how much better modulation was with the pads versus OEM. He clicked off a 2:59 and was on pace to turn a 2:57 on only his 3rd lap out with the car/brakes until he hit traffic, so that shows you how easy to use and comfort inspiring the pads are! A 2:59 is about the fastes that I know of any car going, a 2:57 might have been a new track record!

[The_Raging_Bull]

Originally Posted by frenchsquared

Im really interested in this but I am scared to try anything other then factory. I cannot afford to do this stuff twice. its all I can do to afford to keep tires under this car. It to the point that I am looking at buying other light cars that do not cost $1,000 a day to track.

How long do these pads last compared to stock when run on stock rotors?
What are these pads costing?
How certain is everyone that these pads help rotor life?

Honestly, I don't care if they stop better. I have to reduce the cost of driving this car. I am fine with something stopping less. I got this car cause I thought it would be less then repairing my old vette all the time. Its not... I can put a new LS1 in every year for what this car cost in consumables.

For those of us who have bone stock cars under full warranty, I'd also worry; as Chevy wouldn' cover any damages due to the pads not being Brembo.

[Fusionofideas]

Originally Posted by kramard

This is interesting - couple of questions -

1) is it ok to switch to the sintered pad once the rotors become ruff and are starting to increase brake pad wear or is that too late?
I ran my OEM Rotors that came with the car for a full year of competition and then recently switched to the sintered pad and it has essentially resurfaced the CCR from all the fracturing that was caused.

2) what type of wear rates are you seeing for this pad? Does it wear the same or half as much as a stock pad?
Wear rates are about the same as OEM pads 3 or so weekends is what I usually get and that is with time trial and race with NASA ST2 and TT2


Thanks!

1) is it ok to switch to the sintered pad once the rotors become ruff and are starting to increase brake pad wear or is that too late?
I ran my OEM Rotors that came with the car for a full year of competition and then recently switched to the sintered pad and it has essentially resurfaced the CCR from all the fracturing that was caused.

2) what type of wear rates are you seeing for this pad? Does it wear the same or half as much as a stock pad?
Wear rates are about the same as OEM pads 3 or so weekends is what I usually get and that is with time trial and race with NASA ST2 and TT2

3) any data you can share on how many pad changes you get to a set of these rotors or how many times you've changed pads on a set of rotors?
I am on my second set of Racing Brake Pads and still on my first set of OEM CCR.

[Fusionofideas]

Originally Posted by The_Raging_Bull

For those of us who have bone stock cars under full warranty, I'd also worry; as Chevy wouldn' cover any damages due to the pads not being Brembo.

If you can get a dealer to cover brake pads or brake rotors please send me their contact info. I've never heard of that being an available offering.

[Zslash28]

A few thoughts that I have after reading everything posted. Essentially, the CCM rotors gain a layer of sintered (fine metal particals) material, which forms a new braking surface? Your CCMs almost become the reverse of say the BWM M4 ceramic faced rotors?
At what point does the material stop transferring, and begin to wear? Will the cycle repeat itself, as in repair, wear, repair, never wearing into the CCMs? I would guess that the CCM would still be affected by heat transfer and susceptible to baking off the bonding material holding the carbon fibers together.

[Fusionofideas]

Originally Posted by Zslash28

A few thoughts that I have after reading everything posted. Essentially, the CCM rotors gain a layer of sintered (fine metal particals) material, which forms a new braking surface? Your CCMs almost become the reverse of say the BWM M4 ceramic faced rotors?
At what point does the material stop transferring, and begin to wear? Will the cycle repeat itself, as in repair, wear, repair, never wearing into the CCMs? I would guess that the CCM would still be affected by heat transfer and susceptible to baking off the bonding material holding the carbon fibers together.

That's a great question. I personally have not yet had enough time with the pads to confidently speak to that however I am sure that RacingBrake does and will respond. Infinity carbon ceramics has a nice ring to it however 😎🏁🏁