[KuroOkami]

I know that neither of these cars are GM, but I finally got a chance to watch the movie, "Ford vs Ferrari "

It's a decent movie, ok entertainment for a car guy. But as a GM/Chevy fan, I wonder what the Camaro could have been if Mills had lived and he, Shelby and Iacocca had defected and gone to GM.

Don't get me wrong, I love how the Camaro sits today (that's why I'm buying one) and Al Oppenheiser is a God for everything he has brought to the Camaro brand, but I sit here looking at Camaro's history. And it seems to be the better car than the Mustang, but the numbers don't lie. Most people either don't seem to know that it's better or don't care.

While they seem to compete in the same class, more people end up buying the Mustang. Is Ford just better at building cars that people want, or just convincing them that it's what they want.

Anyway, that's what I was thinking after the movie and thought I would share and wondered what other Camaro people would think of that idea.

[AZCamaroFan]

i don't think Shelby or the battle against Ferrari has one little bit to do with mustang's success. mustang was first, it's always had a large following. it's been packaged better at times. much of the time it's been cheaper and the camaro was competing against itself in some ways with the Firebird. the camaro has had better performance than the mustang more often than not, but the higher end models don't drive sales as much as people think.

[KuroOkami]

But Iacocca was responsible for much of the Mustang's initial success as well as getting Ford back into racing. Overall, I think those three people together are the trifecta. Mills could instinctively drive and build them, Shelby could design them and Iacocca could market them.

[AZCamaroFan]

Iacocca was also behind the mustang II

[Number 3]

Camaro really isn’t in this discussion any more than the Mustang. GT40 was a purpose built, non-production class race car. The Shelby Cobra Coupe (finished 4th) was also in a different league than Mustang or Camaro. So your question really should be if they all defected to GM would GM have built a purpose built prototype class race car for LeMans. And considering Ford’s motivation for doing that was getting used to get a higher price for Ferrari from Fiat, I don’t think so. For Teh Deuce it was driven for personal reasons.

[RenegadeXR]

At the end of the day, with all the engineering involved for aerodynamics and whatnot, you'd still end up with a similar looking purpose-built racer. The GT40 looked closer to the Ferrari 330 P3 than any other Ford being produced at the time.

If going by the movie, the Mustang wasn't really the focus beyond helping Carol Shelby grow his business and allow him to expand his shop. They made it seem like his heart was in the Cobra and the Mustang was didn't bear much beyond his name. Not sure if that's how it really was, but I found that interesting.

[50MileSmile]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

Iacocca was also behind the mustang II

It’s a good thing he was. Despite all the whining from fans of the first-gen Mustang, the Mustang II became one of the best-selling first-year Mustangs of all time, at almost 390,000 units. The car also helped the Mustang brand continue as the only pony car produced uninterrupted from it’s unveiling to today - something the Camaro, Challenger, Barracuda, Firebird and Cougar couldn’t do. In total, the Mustang II sold more than a million units in 5 years, more than most other Mustang generations.

To the OP, plugging GM into the LeMans scenario is an interesting thought, but the situation there was very different. GM had a long ban on racing for a long time before that, and spending millions to race and sell vehicles internationally just was’t part of GM’s DNA.

P.S. It’s Miles, not Mills. Ken Miles. And the Mustang had very little to do with the LeMans effort because there was no way (in the marketplace, rules-wise or in any other way) that any Mustang could compete with any Ferrari of the time.

[VegasZ]

Originally Posted by RenegadeXR

At the end of the day, with all the engineering involved for aerodynamics and whatnot, you'd still end up with a similar looking purpose-built racer. The GT40 looked closer to the Ferrari 330 P3 than any other Ford being produced at the time.

If going by the movie, the Mustang wasn't really the focus beyond helping Carol Shelby grow his business and allow him to expand his shop. They made it seem like his heart was in the Cobra and the Mustang was didn't bear much beyond his name. Not sure if that's how it really was, but I found that interesting.

Shelby did build his own and won the class below the prototype class that the GT40 ran in. That car was so dominant it won the manufacturing championship in its class for the year beating Ferrari and it would of won all classes of Le Mans that year but a rock punched a hole in the oil system so they had to limp it the last couple hours or so costing them the total win but was still good enough to win their class. After the Shelby Daytona won and the GT40 lost Ford forced Shelby to focus on the GT40 and ditch the Daytona along with anything else that wasn’t what Ford wanted them to build. Carol was going to have the 6 Daytona’s dumped in the English Channel but Pete Brock the guy that designed the body figured out a way to get them home. They’re worth between 7.5-30 mil a piece now.

There’s a great documentary on Netflix about Shelby if anyone wants a bit more true version of what went down but the short story is Shelby did what it was told to do by Ford including building the Shelby mustangs up until Ford realized the racing program wasn’t bringing in enough extra money to justify it and they dumped him.

Also Miles died because ford made a new version of the GT40 that broke in half on him at around 185mph not because he burnt up the breaks and crashed it.

A replica Daytona is going to be my next car if I ever get board with the zl1.

[JROC]

Things are just what they were. Mustang is easier to deal with. Camaro is more of an enthusiasts car. Mustang is a girl car. But seriously Mustang is less compromised from an easy to live with perspective. Just like with GEN3/GEN4 Fbody's vs Foxbody's/SN95's Mustangs are easier to see out of and feel smaller because you feel more like you're sitting on it than in it so to speak. Newer Mustangs do sit more Camaroish than they used to. Mustangs feel like easier cars to drive IMO.

This tends to give people the false impression that the Mustang handles better than the Camaro. When people claim the Foxbody/SN95 handle better than the GEN3 and GEN4 cars I'm like BS. They might feel a little more nimble on the street, but that's just up to the point that they don't because their rearend lets go and you're plowing thru a crowd or sitting in a ditch. IMO Mustangs do a poor job of communicating their limits to you, or at least they used to. And this leads to the problem that Mustang generally has is that Ford greatly budgets on their chassis and suspension design. Almost always GM develops noticeably superior chassis/suspension for Camaro than Ford does for Mustang. The thing is GM compromises more on passenger ergonomics and cargo area for the pursuit of performance than Mustang does.

Again this is nothing new. Complaints about Fbody's long dash/hood/low seating position, cat hump on the floor, crappy exhaust routing, small engine compartment, etc have been going on for a long time, but the chassis and suspension work well for a car from it's era. Complaints about Foxbody/SN95's loose chassis/terrible suspension design have been well documented, but they are easier to live with as a DD. They're easier to see out of, more roomy, easier to get in and out of, but their shifter location blows.

I will say I prefer S197 to Zeta though.

[AZCamaroFan]

Originally Posted by 50MileSmile

It’s a good thing he was. Despite all the whining from fans of the first-gen Mustang, the Mustang II became one of the best-selling first-year Mustangs of all time, at almost 390,000 units. The car also helped the Mustang brand continue as the only pony car produced uninterrupted from it’s unveiling to today - something the Camaro, Challenger, Barracuda, Firebird and Cougar couldn’t do. In total, the Mustang II sold more than a million units in 5 years, more than most other Mustang generations.

To the OP, plugging GM into the LeMans scenario is an interesting thought, but the situation there was very different. GM had a long ban on racing for a long time before that, and spending millions to race and sell vehicles internationally just was’t part of GM’s DNA.

P.S. It’s Miles, not Mills. Ken Miles. And the Mustang had very little to do with the LeMans effort because there was no way (in the marketplace, rules-wise or in any other way) that any Mustang could compete with any Ferrari of the time.

er...yeah mostly because of the gas shortage and then it dropped off to less than half that and Camaro went into the sales lead in the meantime. there wasn't even a V8 the first year. i don't think many fans of the segment would call that a good idea.

[KuroOkami]

Originally Posted by 50MileSmile

P.S. It’s Miles, not Mills. Ken Miles. And the Mustang had very little to do with the LeMans effort because there was no way (in the marketplace, rules-wise or in any other way) that any Mustang could compete with any Ferrari of the time.

That was totally my bad, I'm horrible with names. And yes, I completely agree that the type of cars they were building for LeMans was a completely different class of car. But my thinking was going beyond the end of the movie (assuming Miles had lived) and just the hypothetical or what that team could have done for the Camaro.

I don't think you can disagree that just the very name of Carol Shelby has brought a lot of fame and recognition to the Mustang. And projects good or bad, Iococca was a man that knew how to work in the upper echelons of a company to get things done.

And forgive me for not being a race historian, but the impression I got of Miles is that he could take a concept and make it work. He knew the machine inside and out and what its limits were and how to improve them.

I still feel that those 3 working together could've been a very powerful force in the US automotive industry.

Just my .02

[Number 3]

First, Ken Miles was among many that could do what he did as far as driver input. The guy they gave the win to at LeMans in 1966? Yes that would be Bruce McClaren, who's name continues in the industry years after his death in 1970 also in a race car.

But to your point, Shelby and Iaccoca did reunite later with Chrysler. Here is the result......Shelby Charger. Not quite the powerhouse you were thinking, I'm guessing.

[keystonemedical]

Originally Posted by KuroOkami

I know that neither of these cars are GM, but I finally got a chance to watch the movie, "Ford vs Ferrari "

It's a decent movie, ok entertainment for a car guy. But as a GM/Chevy fan, I wonder what the Camaro could have been if Mills had lived and he, Shelby and Iacocca had defected and gone to GM.

Don't get me wrong, I love how the Camaro sits today (that's why I'm buying one) and Al Oppenheiser is a God for everything he has brought to the Camaro brand, but I sit here looking at Camaro's history. And it seems to be the better car than the Mustang, but the numbers don't lie. Most people either don't seem to know that it's better or don't care.

While they seem to compete in the same class, more people end up buying the Mustang. Is Ford just better at building cars that people want, or just convincing them that it's what they want.

Anyway, that's what I was thinking after the movie and thought I would share and wondered what other Camaro people would think of that idea.

Personally, I think what hurt the Camaro in the pony car competition is when GM stopped producing the car from 2002 til 2009 or whatever the time frame was. During that time, Ford produced the 2003/04 Terminator which was a Beast for the era. It seems Ford embraced the musclecar genre during that time. GM moved away from it and I dont think they ever really got it back. Sure the 6th Gen cars are the closest they have come but, It took GM til 2016 to get to 650 h.p. in its ZL1 when Ford was at 662

with its GT500 in 2013/14s. I think Ford has remained loyal to the Mustang brand and continued to invest time and money into it. GM on the other hand hasnt been consistant with doing that with the Camaro. Therefore, I think thats a big reason why the Mustang outsells the Camaro consistantly. Ive owned both brands over the years. I currently have a 2019 ZL1 / LE. I traded my 2013 GT500 in on the Camaro. I loved my GT500, still do. But, I was ready for something different. I wasnt prepared to pay the lofty price for the 2020 GT500 and even the 2015/2019 Super Snakes were still in that price range. So, the ZL1 /LE was right at my price point. I love this car so far, its twice the car the GT500 was and nearly as sexy. Were I go to from here, Im not sure. I doubt by the time Im " bored " and ready to buy again ,the Camaro will still be in production. Maybe GM will have a manual transmission option in is mid engine Vette by then. Or, maybe the 2020 GT500s will come down in value enough by then so I can swing one. In a nutshell, I think GM has always been a step behind when it comes to the pony cars.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by keystonemedical

Personally, I think what hurt the Camaro in the pony car competition is when GM stopped producing the car from 2002 til 2009 or whatever the time frame was. During that time, Ford produced the 2003/04 Terminator which was a Beast for the era. It seems Ford embraced the musclecar genre during that time. GM moved away from it and I dont think they ever really got it back. Sure the 6th Gen cars are the closest they have come but, It took GM til 2016 to get to 650 h.p. in its ZL1 when Ford was at 662

with its GT500 in 2013/14s. I think Ford has remained loyal to the Mustang brand and continued to invest time and money into it. GM on the other hand hasnt been consistant with doing that with the Camaro. Therefore, I think thats a big reason why the Mustang outsells the Camaro consistantly. Ive owned both brands over the years. I currently have a 2019 ZL1 / LE. I traded my 2013 GT500 in on the Camaro. I loved my GT500, still do. But, I was ready for something different. I wasnt prepared to pay the lofty price for the 2020 GT500 and even the 2015/2019 Super Snakes were still in that price range. So, the ZL1 /LE was right at my price point. I love this car so far, its twice the car the GT500 was and nearly as sexy. Were I go to from here, Im not sure. I doubt by the time Im " bored " and ready to buy again ,the Camaro will still be in production. Maybe GM will have a manual transmission option in is mid engine Vette by then. Or, maybe the 2020 GT500s will come down in value enough by then so I can swing one. In a nutshell, I think GM has always been a step behind when it comes to the pony cars.

You kind of forgot the part that the Camaro sold like crap in 2001 and that's why it went away for a while.

GM had an awesome architecture all laid out for the new F-body cars, called Sigma. That ended up being the Cadillac CTS.

And the Camaro in V8 trim has pretty much been the better performance car over the years. Even the ZL1 just kicked the crap out of both the GT500 and the Hellcat Redeye in a recent test. It was only at the 1/4 mile where the GT500s HP took over. On the track, the Camaro was the clear winner over two cars with 100 plus more HP.

We rarely see break down, but age of buyers, sex of buyers and income of buyers plays a big part in this story. And the reason the Camaro died in 2001 was simply the base car didn't sell. V8 powered cars actually held their own in sales, but without the volume, the Camaro alone couldn't keep a plant open. The biggest reason the Camaro is around today is it share LGR with 2 Cadillacs. Overall, the Gen6 is barely outselling the Gen4 in the end.