Camaro Z/28 Nurburgring time = 7:37.47 !! [VIDEO]

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Didn't mean to imply both cars would be the same. Indeed they are very different animals. I just get an allergic reaction to folks saying one is faster by 3 seconds without taking tires into consideration. Kinda like "cheating" in my book anyway.
And I am exstatic with your mention of extra power for the Z28. Now we are talking! Get it close to 600, yet NA, and it will be worth every penny and nothing comparable will touch it. It is more difficult to drive a monentum car IMO. Takes a lot more skill from a driver. An average folk will be slow (without the extra power). Unless they switched from a Bimmer Good posts and very informative - thank you!

Why is that cheating but it's not cheating to have a blower on the ZL1? The only "fair" fight is stock vs stock. Anything else is not fair.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Why is that cheating but it's not cheating to have a blower on the ZL1? The only "fair" fight is stock vs stock. Anything else is not fair.

Ok allow me to change "cheating" to "disappointing" since both cars are Chevys and both cars are Camaros. And if by chance, the ZL1 would equal the Z/28 on a track, with track specific tires, I would be very disappointed if I paid a 50% premium over a ZL1. Don't forget this is a"track car" comparo. Kinda like saying one sprinter is faster then the other but the slower guy wore beach flip flops. Technically, a ZL1 comes with summer vs r-comp tires. Practically I can buy the same lighter wheels and tires from a GM dealer. And practically, I wouldn't be surprised at all, if they were an official option on the ZL1 come 2015 brochure. Especially IF more HP is added to the Z/28 (which I hope they do). And lastly, most folks that seriously track their cars do it on r-comps or slicks, not summer tires to be as fast as they can be. That is not to say, that some don't track their cars on street tires. But usually they are "uber" street tires and they do it for convenience, or cost reasons. Cheers.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Stock Z/28 vs stock ZL1 with optional recaros and rims/r-comps. The only mirror image would be the shoes.

As soon as adding optional equipment is allowed, either the sky is the limit, each entrant is allowed to crib from the other's strengths, or the what-if comparison becomes biased.

Agree on the FI vs NA debate. Yet records wise, FI cars have done very well at the Ring incl ZR1.

I'm not entirely surprised that FI does well at the 'Ring, not after discovering that the average maximum temperature at the 'Ring is closer to 70°F than 90°F.
Scroll midway down
http://www.myweather2.com/Motor-Raci...e-profile.aspx

Originally Posted by TrackClub

It is more difficult to drive a monentum car IMO. Takes a lot more skill from a driver. An average folk will be slow (without the extra power).

Isn't that part of the reward if/when you get it right?

I suppose it could be seen as disappointing that the car with the top track performance did not also have the most powerful engine. The flip side is that it doesn't need as much power to "beat" its big-power stablemate, and even though they share the same basic chassis it's still something of a comparison between a sports car with power vs a muscle car that handles. Competing on the sports car's turf.


Norm

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

As soon as adding optional equipment is allowed, either the sky is the limit, each entrant is allowed to crib from the other's strengths, or the what-if comparison becomes biased.


I'm not entirely surprised that FI does well at the 'Ring, not after discovering that the average maximum temperature at the 'Ring is closer to 70°F than 90°F.
Scroll midway down
http://www.myweather2.com/Motor-Raci...e-profile.aspx



Isn't that part of the reward if/when you get it right?

I suppose it could be seen as disappointing that the car with the top track performance did not also have the most powerful engine. The flip side is that it doesn't need as much power to "beat" its big-power stablemate, and even though they share the same basic chassis it's still something of a comparison between a sports car with power vs a muscle car that handles. Competing on the sports car's turf.


Norm

No question FI car will do better with lower ambient temps. But the ZR1 sits at the top (or very close to it) for many tracks. Not just those in colder climates.

I understand your comment about the optional equipment, but a blower is not available for a Z/28, yet seats/tires are for ZL1. "Optional" still means "production" to me (vs modded as in afermarket). This point aside, let's say a person looked at the (second last) Z06 Ring time and instead bought a GT3 as a "faster car". Then got blown away by one with R-comps on, I bet a GT3 owner would be VERY disapponted. I bet some would go straight to a GM dealer and buy one not caring at all what tires it comes with from a factory - and rightly so. Was a 12 Z06 really that much faster as a ***car*** vs its 08 sister? No, except for the vastly better tires (and PTM). Even GM made a point of it. So does it invalidate it as a stock Corvette vs previous versions riding on street tires? Of course not. To me, "consumables" like tires, brake pads, etc are track specific items. Some folks swap them between street and track driving (for obviously good reasons). If one gets 5-10 track days out of Trofeos and then puts different rubber on, does it make their car "non production"? I don't think so, especially at a track.

To me, a Camaro as a momentum car sounds sad (and I must admit, a bit funny). When was "momentum" ever part of its pedegree? This aint no Bimmer.
A difference between 505 vs 560 in HP and 3800 vs 4000 doesn't make one car a sports car and another muscle car. A Corvette is a sports car. I think both cars share the Camaro muscle car pedigree equally well. Like they share the same body and looks, tremendous power, extremely capable suspensions, brakes, etc. Specific differences notwithstanding.

Being able to drive as a "momentum car" and as a result being able to carry more speed into corner entry and maintain it in mid corner phase (by far the hardest to master, right?) is what we all aspire to do - don't we? Of course different cars have different handling atributes even in F1 and no 2 drivers drive exactly the same. Good ones adopt to the car, but that takes plenty of skill and likely is not a target market of neither of the Camaros.

Here's hoping GM will stick a cam in the Z/28 and bump it to 600HP
This would be a good move given new competition is coming soon and lest we forget (or don't know): Multimatic had done lots of work for other brands, including the previous gen Stang.

[2SSRS@Gen5diy]

Grow up, the ZL1 is one car and the Z/28 a different car, you are tiring to compare apples and oranges, add tires to this car but not power the outer car, bring what you got and lets see how fast they go, O GM they did that and the Z/28 ran fast, in the rain, and the tires you want to add are not rain tires, if you want to add the same tires and rims the Z/28 has to the the ZL1 then if there 8K in price we get to add 8K in horse power mods, no and if or buts..


Then will see if your 580HP ZL1 that is nose heavy, will out run a NA 7000 rpm 427ci monster.


If any one remembers back in the day that JusticePete said GM had 2 cars that will be coming out, one was good and one was grate? well we now know what the grate car was, and its called Z/28.

Rant over

[tramtwo]

Originally Posted by 2SSRS@Gen5diy

Grow up, the ZL1 is one car and the Z/28 a different car, you are tiring to compare apples and oranges, add tires to this car but not power the outer car, bring what you got and lets see how fast they go, O GM they did that and the Z/28 ran fast, in the rain, and the tires you want to add are not rain tires, if you want to add the same tires and rims the Z/28 has to the the ZL1 then if there 8K in price we get to add 8K in horse power mods, no and if or buts..


Then will see if your 580HP ZL1 that is nose heavy, will out run a NA 7000 rpm 427ci monster.


If any one remembers back in the day that JusticePete said GM had 2 cars that will be coming out, one was good and one was grate? well we now know what the grate car was, and its called Z/28.

Rant over

So are you going to be able to get one Ofer?

[Angrybird 12]

If you are comparing any two production cars you should only be comparing them as they come from the factory. Once you throw into the comparison, "If this car had ----- or this car had ----- the other car has", you are invalidating your comparison.

[Blueclyde]

Why are some of you seemingly reacting so heavily to the question of tires on an otherwise stock ZL1? I fail to see why such harsh reactions to this relatively simple suggestion of a comparison are being made. I have a ZL1 and have no issue of which is top dog, even with tires. It's a reasonable question for an enthusiast looking to purchase a track car from the Chevy stable to ask. I think this site gets bashed by being un-objective at times and this appears to be one of those times. I'm as Chevy loyal as they come (4 new Chevrolets that I own) and have had nothing but GM for the past 25 years. This question of putting stickier tires on a ZL1 is rationale one for somebody looking to purchase a trackable Camaro. I'm fairly certain exploration of this question will not discredit the Z/28 or hurt sales in any way.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Blueclyde

Why are some of you seemingly reacting so heavily to the question of tires on an otherwise stock ZL1? I fail to see why such harsh reactions to this relatively simple suggestion of a comparison are being made. I have a ZL1 and have no issue of which is top dog, even with tires. It's a reasonable question for an enthusiast looking to purchase a track car from the Chevy stable to ask. I think this site gets bashed by being un-objective at times and this appears to be one of those times. I'm as Chevy loyal as they come (4 new Chevrolets that I own) and have had nothing but GM for the past 25 years. This question of putting stickier tires on a ZL1 is rationale one for somebody looking to purchase a trackable Camaro. I'm fairly certain exploration of this question will not discredit the Z/28 or hurt sales in any way.

Why? Because ZL1 owners have been complaining that it isn't fair the Z/28 has better tires since the Z/28 was announced. If you want to improve the performance of your personal car, then that is fine but if you want the ZL1 to get the Z/28 tires in an attempt to beat a stock Z/28, then that is a whole different issue. You may not want to discredit the Z/28 but a lot of people came to this subforum posing the same question in an attempt to do so.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Ok allow me to change "cheating" to "disappointing" since both cars are Chevys and both cars are Camaros. And if by chance, the ZL1 would equal the Z/28 on a track, with track specific tires, I would be very disappointed if I paid a 50% premium over a ZL1. Don't forget this is a"track car" comparo. Kinda like saying one sprinter is faster then the other but the slower guy wore beach flip flops. Technically, a ZL1 comes with summer vs r-comp tires. Practically I can buy the same lighter wheels and tires from a GM dealer. And practically, I wouldn't be surprised at all, if they were an official option on the ZL1 come 2015 brochure. Especially IF more HP is added to the Z/28 (which I hope they do). And lastly, most folks that seriously track their cars do it on r-comps or slicks, not summer tires to be as fast as they can be. That is not to say, that some don't track their cars on street tires. But usually they are "uber" street tires and they do it for convenience, or cost reasons. Cheers.

I'm disappointed that the Z/28 didn't come from the factory with 550 hp. Why not put heads and a cam on a Z/28 and then run it against a stock ZL1 at the Ring? I'm sure it would slaughter it. It's cheating the ZL1 has a blower and 80 horsepower over the Z/28.

I don't see GM offering the Z/28 wheels and tires on the ZL1. That would change the suspension geometry and would probably require the mag suspension being recalibrated. Not to mention the wheels would stick out of the wheel wells requiring the fender flares and the modified splitter, rocker panels and diffuser.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

To me, a Camaro as a momentum car sounds sad (and I must admit, a bit funny). When was "momentum" ever part of its pedegree?

Ever since the right people not only realized that "point and shoot" wasn't the only way to drive cars with seating for more than two . . . but that it wasn't necessarily even the best way?

Re-painting the performance image of ponycars (in general) from being all about power to something with a better balance among the various dynamic attributes has been a long time coming. But now that they have much better all-around performance, isn't it time to shed the preconceived notions that were accurate 35 to 50 years ago? These cars are playing on an international performance stage now, not just against the shadows of their previous generations.


At least some of the credit belongs to the wider interest in and availability of HPDE/PDX road course track time. Not just for the Z/28, although that is its stated mission. At the risk of ruffling the feathers of any drag racing enthusiasts who might be still following this thread, I'm going to suggest that many more people are outgrowing the stage where straight line acceleration is all that matters. We could blame BMW, Porsche, Mazda, Nissan, NASCAR at the Glen, or maybe even youtube for this, but in the end it really doesn't matter.

A difference between 505 vs 560 in HP and 3800 vs 4000 doesn't make one car a sports car and another muscle car.

I was speaking in relative terms to highlight the difference in character. Certainly, neither car is a Miata (or taken to further extreme, a Caterham). Then again, neither car is a COPO wanna-be either.

Being able to drive as a "momentum car" and as a result being able to carry more speed into corner entry and maintain it in mid corner phase (by far the hardest to master, right?) is what we all aspire to do - don't we?

Would you rather be trying to bully a 1st gen Camaro with a 396 into driving that way or working with today's 1LE or later-this-year's Z/28? Dance while on crutches or as a finalist on "Dancing With The Stars"?


Norm

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I'm disappointed that the Z/28 didn't come from the factory with 550 hp. Why not put heads and a cam on a Z/28 and then run it against a stock ZL1 at the Ring? I'm sure it would slaughter it. It's cheating the ZL1 has a blower and 80 horsepower over the Z/28.

I don't see GM offering the Z/28 wheels and tires on the ZL1. That would change the suspension geometry and would probably require the mag suspension being recalibrated. Not to mention the wheels would stick out of the wheel wells requiring the fender flares and the modified splitter, rocker panels and diffuser.

Folks put shorter rims/tires on these (and other) cars without having to recalibrate squat. If my memory serves me right, the Z/28 rims/tires drop the car by 7 or 8mm?
I don't think 305s would stick out. That's a stock size for the rears already.
Some folks even run a square 315 set ups for the track. I would hope they fit just fine.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Folks put shorter rims/tires on these (and other) cars without having to recalibrate squat. If my memory serves me right, the Z/28 rims/tires drop the car by 7 or 8mm?
I don't think 305s would stick out. That's a stock size for the rears already.
Some folks even run a square 315 set ups for the track. I would hope they fit just fine.

People do all sorts of stuff without recalibration but GM has to do it and make sure it will last. The Z/28 was also designed to run 19" wheels. I'm sure that was taken into account when they set up the suspension.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Ever since the right people not only realized that "point and shoot" wasn't the only way to drive cars with seating for more than two . . . but that it wasn't necessarily even the best way?

Re-painting the performance image of ponycars (in general) from being all about power to something with a better balance among the various dynamic attributes has been a long time coming. But now that they have much better all-around performance, isn't it time to shed the preconceived notions that were accurate 35 to 50 years ago? These cars are playing on an international performance stage now, not just against the shadows of their previous generations.


At least some of the credit belongs to the wider interest in and availability of HPDE/PDX road course track time. Not just for the Z/28, although that is its stated mission. At the risk of ruffling the feathers of any drag racing enthusiasts who might be still following this thread, I'm going to suggest that many more people are outgrowing the stage where straight line acceleration is all that matters. We could blame BMW, Porsche, Mazda, Nissan, NASCAR at the Glen, or maybe even youtube for this, but in the end it really doesn't matter.


I was speaking in relative terms to highlight the difference in character. Certainly, neither car is a Miata (or taken to further extreme, a Caterham). Then again, neither car is a COPO wanna-be either.


Would you rather be trying to bully a 1st gen Camaro with a 396 into driving that way or working with today's 1LE or later-this-year's Z/28? Dance while on crutches or as a finalist on "Dancing With The Stars"?


Norm

Norm, I really, really enjoy your thoughts OK, just the bottom line using your analogy: IMO both the Z/28 and the ZL1 would be the finalists of the "Dancing with The Stars". Their track times prove it to me regardless of the tire debate.
PS GM cars have been impressing an international scene for many many yrs, including some uber events like 24 Hrs of LeMans to name the top dog.
Ditto on the domestic scene against the best of the best. Agree that DE is gaining a large momentum especially with younger crowd all over iRacing and other sims. Cheers!