Why is Z/28 more heralded that the SS?

[PYROLYSIS]

If they don't announce a Z28 by February 2013 I will go ahead with a 1LE. I'm getting real tired of waiting and won't be able to hold out much longer. It would also have to be significantly cheaper than a ZL1 for me to consider it, if announced. A metallic blue Z28 would be my dream car but a black 1LE is definitely enough to make me feel like I didn't settle for a lesser car. Either way I'm having fun waiting to see if GM comes through for us.

[LOWDOWN]

A touch of "history"...

In the beginning, Vince Piggins commissioned a road-racy-but-streetable Camaro prototype that "fit" SCCA's Trans Am-series' engine specs of a maximum 305 cu. in (or 5.0L). The initial "mule", that he famously took "Pete" Estes for a test-drive in (to achieve Program approval) was in fact powered by a solid-cammed 283, but Piggins then suggested a 327 block (4.00" bore vs. the 283's 3.875") and a 283 crank (3.00" stroke) would "maximize" the allowable displacement @ 302. "Done deal"...

1968 Ford Tunnel Port 302 head design was based on the then-existing 427 FE Ford engine's design being so well utilized in NASCAR (as a replacement for the NASCAR-banned SOHC). The pushrods were passed through the ports for optimized flow in both cases. The problem was, it worked great in theory (and NASCAR, where sustained high rpm were the order of the day, generally), but not so well in road-racy small displacements experienced in Trans Am with a generally wider rpm range.
Remember, too, Pontiac played with this same technology in their 303" Trans Am-series engines, unsuccessfully, while their Ram Air V drag engines (parts counter-only) showed greater potential with a larger displacement, until the Program was cancelled.

BOSS 302 engines utilized a new cylinder head design, not unlike the 385-Series of big V8 Ford engines: 429s and eventually 460s. Bigger and straighter ports, and therefore bigger valves, were possible because the combustion chamber was "twisted" to allow the pushrods to not pinch the ports, or run through them as they did in the "tunnel port" designs. Better port flow = better power. This head design was/is sometimes referred to as "Cleveland", where most were built, as opposed to "Windsor", the design used for 221-260-289-non-BOSS 302-351W engines.
As with all engine designs, there are compromises. In the case of Ford's "Cleveland" design, they built ports that were huge for the displacement sizes, that made great HP numbers, but lower-engine-speed torque WAS "limited". And out-of-the-corner torque is what helps with corner-exit speeds...something the smaller-ported Chevs had more of...
Remember, too, this basic head design is what contributed to Ford's incredible NASCAR and NHRA Pro Stock performances, latter-'70s to mid-'90s. Heard of Dyno Don, or Bill Glidden, or Gapp and (Jack) Roush, or the Yates NASCAR programs? Bill Elliott, Alan Kulwicki, Davie Allison? Restrictor plates in NASCAR are a by-product of "Cleveland" engines. GM had aero, but Fords had (more) power for a few not-so-brief moments in time...

Ford captured the Trans Am Over 2.5L titles in '67 and '70, while Chev reigned supreme in '68 and '69. Both avoided direct factory involvement in '71, while Penske and Donohue followed the money-pot to AMC...and NASCAR, too... and triumphed.

More on Tunnel Port 302s: Here's the '68 Mustang brochure. Notice the "Sedan Racing" optional engine...

[LOWDOWN]

...and their famous 1968 face-off, Tunnel Port Mustang vs. Camaro Z/28 Cross Ram...

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...ved-comparison

[LOWDOWN]

More "history"...

Jay Signore was the mechanical maven behind the IROC-series cars...Chev/Dodge/Pontiac versions included (Porsches, initially, ordered by Penske through Porsche). IROC racers, by the '80s, were purpose-built race cars and bore little/no comparison to showroom versions.

http://www.motorsport.com/iroc/photo...e-president-of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...e_of_Champions

Roger Penske: Major domo within CART, mid-'70s, with a burgeoning racing AND retail auto empire, tight with Porsche who loved Mark Donohue's abilities and Penske's business $en$e. IROC was initially a co-op between Penske-Porsche-CART as a CART-race add-on to put disparate drivers in "equal" race cars in an All-Star auto event. But those rear-engined German machines were expen$ive...and "tricky" to drive. Since the CART races were held in the US, why not a US Manufacturer? Why not indeed...

Camaro IROCs were a dressed-up versions of a Z28...cladding, 16" wheels/tires etc. Heavier. Same engines available. Think Firebird Trans Ams/GTAs vs. Formulas...

The mid-'90s saw a fellow by the name of John Middlebrook promoted within GM, from VP/GM - Pontiac-GMC eventually to VP - North American Sales, overseeing all NA sales activities. This man is the one who, while @ Pontiac, encouraged/supported Ed Hamburger and his SLP organization in his pursuit of a "halo" Corvette-engined Firebird (brandishing Firestone Firehawk tires) called...YUUUP...the Firehawk.

Fast-forward a few years, with Middlebrook in a new overseeing capacity as VP-NA Sales @ GM, and his support of Jim Perkins, then-VP/GM-Chevrolet, for a "halo" Z28...called a Camaro SS...and upfitted by...YUUUP...Ed Hamburger/SLP...

Middlebrook? Retired from GM, now, and the Chief Appellate Officer of NASCAR...who recently overturned NASCAR's onerous penalties to Rick Hendrick's crew chief Chad Knaus. Middlebrook was also the "Father of 0%", instituted by GM post-9/11 to get the "iron" moving after that disaster.

Jim Perkins? Retired from GM, and quickly joined Rick Hendrick as President and CEO of the Hendrick Automotive Group. Mr. Perkins, when he worked in the El Paso TX Zone Office of Chevrolet in the early-'60s, is credited with hooking up Dick Harrell with Vince Piggins for support of Harrell's drag racing efforts. Special packages like the Z11 Impala, and "mystery 427" (read: Mark IV Big Block 396/427/454/ZL1) are a part of those connections...

Dick Harrell? Considered the guiding force, along with his Chevrolet dealer contact Fred Gibb, of the ORIGINAL ZL1, created by Piggins under COPO 9560...

Does/do GM executives place a value on performance...and streetable performance cars...and racing?

Here was part of the answer...

[el ess A]

Originally Posted by ShnOmac

Stating opinion as fact..... Not going to go over well in here.... Just sayin

I really don't care how well it goes over in here. Don't read it if you don't agree. Infer whatever you like. Did I enter the Soviet Union where refusing to follow lock-step groupthink is against the law? I want to see a Z28, too. But only the green-lighters in GM have the power to make that happen.

Bring out your hints. I hope someone proves there will be a 5th gen Z28. But unless something changes, I seriously doubt it will happen.

Problem is, some can't accept anything less than the next version of the Camaro is a Z28. Eventually, you'll be correct. But for now, don't keep your panties so tight it cuts off blood flow to the brain. That doesn't go over too well in here.

[LOWDOWN]

Until SEMA '11, no one was expecting a "1LE", either. And, even then, there was "feedback" that proved "productive"...right on this very Site. Check my Post #62...

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=213518&page=3

Gen-5 ZEE a "dead issue"? Not until MY '15 is dead and gone...

Unfortunately, there IS a MAJOR contingent of Camaro-centered folk who do NOT hope/wish/wanna see a Gen-5 ZEE, for varied reasons. And we're fine with that, too. "Different strokes..." I guess. But we DON'T need to be constantly reminded of those folks, frankly...it gets OLD, quickly...just like the ZEE-lievers don't make a practise of besmeerching the ZL1, or SS, or LS/LT, or 1LE, or...

"Here", we're Camaro Comrades...truly.

And thanks for stoppin' in.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by el ess X

I really don't care how well it goes over in here. Don't read it if you don't agree. Infer whatever you like. Did I enter the Soviet Union where refusing to follow lock-step groupthink is against the law? I want to see a Z28, too. But only the green-lighters in GM have the power to make that happen.

Bring out your hints. I hope someone proves there will be a 5th gen Z28. But unless something changes, I seriously doubt it will happen.

Problem is, some can't accept anything less than the next version of the Camaro is a Z28. Eventually, you'll be correct. But for now, don't keep your panties so tight it cuts off blood flow to the brain. That doesn't go over too well in here.

ALL I CAN SAY IS WOW!

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

ALL I CAN SAY IS WOW!

Enough said.....

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by el ess X

I really don't care how well it goes over in here. Don't read it if you don't agree. Infer whatever you like. Did I enter the Soviet Union where refusing to follow lock-step groupthink is against the law? I want to see a Z28, too. But only the green-lighters in GM have the power to make that happen.

Bring out your hints. I hope someone proves there will be a 5th gen Z28. But unless something changes, I seriously doubt it will happen.

Problem is, some can't accept anything less than the next version of the Camaro is a Z28. Eventually, you'll be correct. But for now, don't keep your panties so tight it cuts off blood flow to the brain. That doesn't go over too well in here.

Where's your brain at? because mines not in my paints, and I don't cross dress. sorry to ruin your day dreams. now with that said.

you are commenting in to a Z28 section with many faithful. You are intentionally stirring the pot. If you post something in an open forum expect it to get responded to. If I don't like something I'm suppose to keep my mouth shut? who's will is being pushed in that sentiment?

I've visited other sections on this forum and for the most part the Z28 faithful only push the Z28 message in this section. If you don't like it stay out. that simple. and along the same lines as your logic.

[tooslow]

Originally Posted by ShnOmac

I don't know for sure but I highly doubt they used different tracks. That would be a PR nightmare!

Can't be sure, but we do know that all of the Lightning Lap events have been run on the 4.1 mile Grand West course.

[Fightinfire921]

Originally Posted by el ess X

Pedders not withstanding...they could make even a refrigerator handle.

The 60's Z28s didn't weigh 2 tons either.

I'm still betting you will not see a 5th gen Z28. Wish on a star if you like, but it ain't happening.

Could we please see the minutes of that meeting.

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by el ess X

Wish on a star if you like, but it ain't happening.

...never say never......

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

Where's your brain at? because mines not in my paints, and I don't cross dress. sorry to ruin your day dreams. now with that said.

you are commenting in to a Z28 section with many faithful. You are intentionally stirring the pot. If you post something in an open forum expect it to get responded to. If I don't like something I'm suppose to keep my mouth shut? who's will is being pushed in that sentiment?

I've visited other sections on this forum and for the most part the Z28 faithful only push the Z28 message in this section. If you don't like it stay out. that simple. and along the same lines as your logic.

....ummmmmm,......

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

...and their famous 1968 face-off, Tunnel Port Mustang vs. Camaro Z/28 Cross Ram...

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...ved-comparison

One of my favorite reads. But you could not buy a Tunnel Port in a Mustang as an option, could you?