Hot starting issues

[xc_SS/RS]

Originally Posted by camguynj

Just posting this for further discussion as to what is the real cause of hot starting problems?

I believe every forum post about hot starting problems came from cars with LT hdrs, which supports starter heat soak being the cause.

I would think that if the cause was the stock tune cranking advance values that yhe forum would have countless posts of guys without LT hdrs having hot start problems, which doesn't seem to be the case. Taking that into consideration it appears IMO that starter heat soak due to having LT hdrs is the real cause which can be overcome by either adding addtl grounds along with upgrading and/or wrapping the starter, or by changing the cranking advance values.

Lol I have headers as well man! You're not putting 2 and 2 together here on the issue of heat.

Tell me, what does an LSA V8 have that an LS3 V8 doesn't have?

Hint, it is spun by the engine itself and compresses air which causes heat to build and soak into nearby components.

[christianchevell]

Hell I had a wrap on my new stock starter...great at holding heat in also...……..its a frankly metal rag that can short out the starter...……………. Frankly that table shows 450 RPM and down not being good for timing maybe because they are trying to not start it but flood some gas in a dry cylinder until it cranks faster...? Then the cranking faster would have a good initial dose of gas when it fires...............….Frankly I know hot starts sucked stock with headers and HFC, and I cured it with aftermarket starter..... and I idle at 950 so the tables effects of slowing the start up with timing is no where near where it should be cranking at to get past the different timing table, the deal is they most likely did for a reason, and the problem is not just in the timing table ;it comes from starter heat stroke which has occurred since long before you were born.

SO if you guys don't want to listen to the POWERMASTER XS TORQUE 9509 recommendation......well what ever, I can tell you even cold it cranks faster than the stock starter, and when hot it overcomes and gets it..... you have to crank faster to get it...………. NIGHT and DAY...……. And if I am trying to crank at 450 rpm I am Heat stroked for one...…. or have failing battery needing to build up at least a static charge from sitting...…. or the battery needs charged.

I may not be a rocket scientist but I know enough from common sense to see what works and go with it, and changing out tables buying a copy of HP tuners putting it on a Laptop so I can adjust tables after studying and blowing that $$$$$$$$$$$$$$; when I spend $$$ for dyno tunes with GM software and HP tuning and a Master on the tuning and a Huge library of past tunes to start out; is not going to happen and for most not going to happen either.

I would not be surprised if the difference in the timing table is just that; to help get some gas in after running hot, and the difference for the FI CTSV being from its being Supercharged...with much higher fuel pressure...….

And my stroked, built ,higher than stock compression engine which of course is harder to start than a stock engine.........……….. cranks faster and overcomes heat stroke due to headers now thanks to my new starter; and I have the wire bypass, and I checked and sanded all grounds, and I had a stupid sock for the stock starter, new starter and new battery...…...so even if the stock starting table was not messed with by the tuner which I doubt he would as that's not a normal thing looked at I am fine with it...… AND IF IT AINT BROKE...….

[KGoddard]

Originally Posted by xc_SS/RS

here are some screenshots to back-up what i am talking about above:

stock cranking advance values:



as you can see for ECTs up to 175 you will get good start up timing and for 176+ it will slowly reduce itself to equal -10 degrees at 100-200 and 250-500 rpms. this is why, when the engine is hot, it will start, stumble, and then catch itself to slowly get into its idle speed/spark settings.

the example i am using is from an E67 ECM/PCM/ECU that you'll find on a 2009 CTS-V (LSA V8):



You can see that at 176 degree ECT the CTS-V has 2 more degrees of timing advance during cranking, and the big one is it goes up to 10 degrees (thats a 20 degree swing in some cells!) for 212-284 degree ECT! huge difference when you compare it to an LS3 tune (camaro, corvette, or even a crate motor tune) and it explains why they start up so well.

onto my adjusted cranking values:



all i did was change the -10 degree values to equal the positive values in their row. starts up great as it is but i think i will add another degree for 176+ cells just to help it a bit more.

here are the graphs:

stock:



cts-v:



mine:



i think it helps, and once i saw the cts-v table i felt pretty confident this is alright to do. keep in mind you will need to adjust the start-up flare table to make sure the engine doesn't rev up like crazy.

christian: i'm sorry but screw your starter. i've got a stock starter powered by a smaller battery than stock and mine cranks like magic.


UUUGE EDIT: because this is a Camaro forum dedicated to the 5th generation model, i present to you: the stock cranking spark values and graph from a 2013 Camaro ZL1 with an A6 trans:

values:


graph:


still think its heatsoak?

Anyone else try this? Im trying to decide how to ask my tuner to adjust this without making him sound like he doesn't know what he's doing. Unless someone can walk me through how to do it. Lol

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[christianchevell]

You should listen to the old hot rodder and go with a higher torque starter, its worked for me and many others for a century...……. Or you could go to the guy I use for $550 for dyno tune as he has two electrical engineering degrees and a waiting list months long.....Or try to study forever HP tuning which works better with a dyno especially load bearing.

But hey I am just forged stroked and cammed and flowed with the stock hood making it hotter maybe some chuckle with the HP tune can talk to your tuner for you and the tuner can take his time at whatever per hour and charge you for it.....or like I said just try the same as stock price higher torque starter that's been working for me after doing this and that and the other thing....and getting a dirty look from my tuner even mentioning this crap...as its already done....

a good tuner is ok; a great tuner has the stock Soft and Hardware, Hp tuning, A Mustang Dyno and decades of experience with a library of tunes that people wait months to get to get a appointment with and can usually copy and paste about exactly the tune you need from having installed it before many times...… and then just tweaks it from there...…

Frankly I always found when modified the starter to sound weaker than it should on the fifth gen camaros I have owned, and especially hot with the tiny stock starter right there not shielded well, and wrap it; it just holds in the heat eventually.... And frankly I would rather use my tuner again as I need him than piss him off talking about cranking advance values he did already, it would be like trying to convince him the clanking sound of some other guys Mcleod clutch chattering like hell is good because he picked it out...…

Research parts well and maybe someday you will find the expert likes your choices other than that if they are really that great let them pick and leave them alone unless you have really good questions to ask as Time is Money.... And fixing Stupid is unfortunately happening a lot some places……..


SO to simply say it here's a example I go to Tommy Wong of Wongs Performance Engineering in Vancouver Washington, I pay sales tax there I don't have too here, last time I went to him I had to wait for a freshen on my tune on my new stroker for a Corvette that came from Bend Oregon the guy drove in other words more than three hours trailering his Corvette which he had a 2.3 blower installed on by a competent mechanic yet its hand held tune was not so good...… Tommy in hour worked his ways and Gained him 150 + HP for tuning it right. SO after the dyno tune guy loads it up and drives 4 hours back happy he gained 150 Hp for $550...….

Ussed to be back in the DAY I changed out starters like every year or so because...they were 30 bucks and 30 lbs and I was strong and laid on my back under my jacked up Chevies……. There was no starter advance cranking table, no Great ECU with Fuel injection and this and that, but there was aftermarket higher torque starters for $$$$ smaller than the stock LOG and they worked excellent but costs a lot more than $30....

If it worked thirty ; forty years ago...its still working for me...……. Go Figure.... and the engine bays were so big you could fit massive hogs under the hood and still have tons of room for anything. I ones made a beautiful high Chromium content transition from square to round polished up cowling from the radiator to the engine for the fan on my 71 Monte Carlo I had ( 150 louvers in the hood I punched also), ..After making it and a few other select goodies I would go to an occasional car show and show them off and drum up some business for my boss who I worked for making custom wind directional chimney caps stopping down draft for the western USA.....

I then got to make things for hot rods here and there rather than just flue liners or screened off caps etc...….. etc …. And yes eventually that boss who was sometimes a bit too eccentric who was generous sometimes to a fault was shot to death in a Taco Bell parking lot by a employee he fired who rented a house from him and used his sick day to attend court instead then got fired when he found out....

and killed the boss who went out of his way with his business to give health insurance to employees and give them paid days off...His name was Mark Stevens, I was his only ex employees to attend his funeral besides his family which took over his business....Just another Sad but true story form the big city...

And anyway he fired me but is till got unemployment as I told a chimney seep service they should just give their custom measurements to me as he was so busy he often made mistakes inputting info into the plasma tables computer programming and I tried to take the heat off of him being the shipping mgr.... SO I watched over time his pet become his competition he trained in college paying to make him smarter, and eventually over time heard of his demise ….. Sad but true.. and just another morning rant, have a good day!

Life is often more complicated than we make it simplifying it can be so good for ones soul.....



I tried to find a article but its so old, instead I found this fresh keeping Portland Weird article about white teens killing a black man just collecting cans..... https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/201...ts-allege.html

So be wise, don't commit crimes as I make a living training inmates at the Oregon State PEN being a Facility Maintenance Specialist Carpenter...…. /every thing guy; who runs and fixes a motor pool full of vehicles when I can between so many construction projects....I just got and fixed up a fleet of gas powered golf carts recently, did a couple tractor clutches in progress, had inmates strip the barrel off a side lift 1980 garbage truck we are making a flat bed out of now, worked over two new to me used trucks bought from surplus and finally ditched my 88 dodge we had just had the suspension done too...LOL

If its not one thing its another; Tuesday I train 30 inmates to be forklift drivers, Wednesday escort and place in a huge gate between a block yard and a Japanese garden just completed inside which should make national news around the 6th next month...grand opening...LOL I spent more time on that dang thing, etc etc...I just a glad I got the big boss to do roofing studies so someone beside me can fix the major ones....

Doing towers like 40' in the air off a high lift sucks ...so I finally got to do them right with arch. comp..... not stupid roll roofing they used for like 50+ years that would have to be repaired every year....etc etc etc...…. its like they say If its not one thing its another...that's why they call it work...…… that's what I teach.....go duckies...…

Something we think will be in the news I worked a lot on this last Summer.... someone had to get it in..... we have heart beat monitors, many gates etc...its not like say that stupid Bandits movie where we faked them instantly getting out of the PEN to Silverton Oregon home of Joe Dirt...LOL the inmates in the movie they are my friends...coworkers.....LOL and BTW Bruce Willis a dick, Billy Bob Thornton a nice guy....

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-a...capes-n1061726
The chuckle head murderer on the bridge tried passing off a drill bit out the fence we painted black....for; most likely making a shank; got busted thrown in the hole, and got out of trouble most likely just from his association with this project.....so he could appear in the pics the butt head . And loading in all those trees and rocks and crap was a PITA..... And I just had made it into a yard graded and covered with rolled out grass a few years back for a Vietnam Memorial...…. SO it just surrounded it and trashed all my landscaping...LOL

But often we have to remember we are but where we are in life but for the grace of god...take it from a old guy who recovered from a ascending aortic dissection I had in January having to quit smoking as you need collagen which is attacked by nicotine...… collagen repairs your everything...and keeps you from having hernias which I got lifting boulders building a rock wall in like Sept last year....Murr…….

And BTW the guy who they show who designed the garden he Survived Hiroshima, And I helped get the Koi into the yard the other day...came from California shipped in boxes...LOL Life is one long Interesting story....

[KGoddard]

Originally Posted by christianchevell

You should listen to the old hot rodder and go with a higher torque starter, its worked for me and many others for a century...……. Or you could go to the guy I use for $550 for dyno tune as he has two electrical engineering degrees and a waiting list months long.....Or try to study forever HP tuning which works better with a dyno especially load bearing.

But hey I am just forged stroked and cammed and flowed with the stock hood making it hotter maybe some chuckle with the HP tune can talk to your tuner for you and the tuner can take his time at whatever per hour and charge you for it.....or like I said just try the same as stock price higher torque starter that's been working for me after doing this and that and the other thing....and getting a dirty look from my tuner even mentioning this crap...as its already done....

a good tuner is ok; a great tuner has the stock Soft and Hardware, Hp tuning, A Mustang Dyno and decades of experience with a library of tunes that people wait months to get to get a appointment with and can usually copy and paste about exactly the tune you need from having installed it before many times...… and then just tweaks it from there...…

Frankly I always found when modified the starter to sound weaker than it should on the fifth gen camaros I have owned, and especially hot with the tiny stock starter right there not shielded well, and wrap it; it just holds in the heat eventually.... And frankly I would rather use my tuner again as I need him than piss him off talking about cranking advance values he did already, it would be like trying to convince him the clanking sound of some other guys Mcleod clutch chattering like hell is good because he picked it out...…

Research parts well and maybe someday you will find the expert likes your choices other than that if they are really that great let them pick and leave them alone unless you have really good questions to ask as Time is Money.... And fixing Stupid is unfortunately happening a lot some places……..


SO to simply say it here's a example I go to Tommy Wong of Wongs Performance Engineering in Vancouver Washington, I pay sales tax there I don't have too here, last time I went to him I had to wait for a freshen on my tune on my new stroker for a Corvette that came from Bend Oregon the guy drove in other words more than three hours trailering his Corvette which he had a 2.3 blower installed on by a competent mechanic yet its hand held tune was not so good...… Tommy in hour worked his ways and Gained him 150 + HP for tuning it right. SO after the dyno tune guy loads it up and drives 4 hours back happy he gained 150 Hp for $550...….

Ussed to be back in the DAY I changed out starters like every year or so because...they were 30 bucks and 30 lbs and I was strong and laid on my back under my jacked up Chevies……. There was no starter advance cranking table, no Great ECU with Fuel injection and this and that, but there was aftermarket higher torque starters for $$$$ smaller than the stock LOG and they worked excellent but costs a lot more than $30....

If it worked thirty ; forty years ago...its still working for me...……. Go Figure.... and the engine bays were so big you could fit massive hogs under the hood and still have tons of room for anything. I ones made a beautiful high Chromium content transition from square to round polished up cowling from the radiator to the engine for the fan on my 71 Monte Carlo I had ( 150 louvers in the hood I punched also), ..After making it and a few other select goodies I would go to an occasional car show and show them off and drum up some business for my boss who I worked for making custom wind directional chimney caps stopping down draft for the western USA.....

I then got to make things for hot rods here and there rather than just flue liners or screened off caps etc...….. etc …. And yes eventually that boss who was sometimes a bit too eccentric who was generous sometimes to a fault was shot to death in a Taco Bell parking lot by a employee he fired who rented a house from him and used his sick day to attend court instead then got fired when he found out....

and killed the boss who went out of his way with his business to give health insurance to employees and give them paid days off...His name was Mark Stevens, I was his only ex employees to attend his funeral besides his family which took over his business....Just another Sad but true story form the big city...

And anyway he fired me but is till got unemployment as I told a chimney seep service they should just give their custom measurements to me as he was so busy he often made mistakes inputting info into the plasma tables computer programming and I tried to take the heat off of him being the shipping mgr.... SO I watched over time his pet become his competition he trained in college paying to make him smarter, and eventually over time heard of his demise ….. Sad but true.. and just another morning rant, have a good day!

Life is often more complicated than we make it simplifying it can be so good for ones soul.....



I tried to find a article but its so old, instead I found this fresh keeping Portland Weird article about white teens killing a black man just collecting cans..... https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/201...ts-allege.html

So be wise, don't commit crimes as I make a living training inmates at the Oregon State PEN being a Facility Maintenance Specialist Carpenter...…. /every thing guy; who runs and fixes a motor pool full of vehicles when I can between so many construction projects....I just got and fixed up a fleet of gas powered golf carts recently, did a couple tractor clutches in progress, had inmates strip the barrel off a side lift 1980 garbage truck we are making a flat bed out of now, worked over two new to me used trucks bought from surplus and finally ditched my 88 dodge we had just had the suspension done too...LOL

If its not one thing its another; Tuesday I train 30 inmates to be forklift drivers, Wednesday escort and place in a huge gate between a block yard and a Japanese garden just completed inside which should make national news around the 6th next month...grand opening...LOL I spent more time on that dang thing, etc etc...I just a glad I got the big boss to do roofing studies so someone beside me can fix the major ones....

Doing towers like 40' in the air off a high lift sucks ...so I finally got to do them right with arch. comp..... not stupid roll roofing they used for like 50+ years that would have to be repaired every year....etc etc etc...…. its like they say If its not one thing its another...that's why they call it work...…… that's what I teach.....go duckies...…

Something we think will be in the news I worked a lot on this last Summer.... someone had to get it in..... we have heart beat monitors, many gates etc...its not like say that stupid Bandits movie where we faked them instantly getting out of the PEN to Silverton Oregon home of Joe Dirt...LOL the inmates in the movie they are my friends...coworkers.....LOL and BTW Bruce Willis a dick, Billy Bob Thornton a nice guy....

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-a...capes-n1061726
The chuckle head murderer on the bridge tried passing off a drill bit out the fence we painted black....for; most likely making a shank; got busted thrown in the hole, and got out of trouble most likely just from his association with this project.....so he could appear in the pics the butt head . And loading in all those trees and rocks and crap was a PITA..... And I just had made it into a yard graded and covered with rolled out grass a few years back for a Vietnam Memorial...…. SO it just surrounded it and trashed all my landscaping...LOL

But often we have to remember we are but where we are in life but for the grace of god...take it from a old guy who recovered from a ascending aortic dissection I had in January having to quit smoking as you need collagen which is attacked by nicotine...… collagen repairs your everything...and keeps you from having hernias which I got lifting boulders building a rock wall in like Sept last year....Murr…….

And BTW the guy who they show who designed the garden he Survived Hiroshima, And I helped get the Koi into the yard the other day...came from California shipped in boxes...LOL Life is one long Interesting story....

Did you expect anyone to read all that?

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[flyinglow57]

Originally Posted by KGoddard

Did you expect anyone to read all that?

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Your previous post wasnt much shorter. I would start with an engine ground. Then move to a high tq starter. And if it continues id maybe try the tune thing. But it really seems its the factory starter heating up under the long tubes.

[InFiD3ViL]

Originally Posted by KGoddard

Did you expect anyone to read all that?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

No. But now I want a Frosty and Baconator.

[christianchevell]

Just rambling on one morning for those that care.....and yes it was Halloween way back then......and that little girl has four kids now...

[KGoddard]

Would just like to report back, before I had my tuner do anything I added the additional ground, went to the track Friday night, ran 3 back to back passes, with the car idling while in line, turned it off after the 3 runs, cranked her back over, no issues, turned over like she was cold. Looks like im good

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[camguynj]

Originally Posted by KGoddard

Would just like to report back, before I had my tuner do anything I added the additional ground, went to the track Friday night, ran 3 back to back passes, with the car idling while in line, turned it off after the 3 runs, cranked her back over, no issues, turned over like she was cold. Looks like im good

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Don't think you mentioned if you have long tubes?

[KGoddard]

Originally Posted by camguynj

Don't think you mentioned if you have long tubes?

Yes, 1 7/8 long tubes, but my car didn't have any issues until I installed my cam a month or so ago.

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[camguynj]

Originally Posted by KGoddard

Yes, 1 7/8 long tubes, but my car didn't have any issues until I installed my cam a month or so ago.

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Interesting, makes you wonder maybe it was the timing and not starter heat soak from the headers

[twenty_below0]

Good read, never heard from JRE or the other tuner on here..... bump to see if they have something to input on the tune side of it

[christianchevell]

Anyway have not heard of any complaints from the members who did a Torque master starter as I did , Mine started to crap out once and I changed the battery which was over four years old now, starts again like a champ for a Stroker with about the max a build will be for a ls3.... I always have had batteries crap out about 4 years they never live their full life that's just the facts.... Kind of like having more torque....