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Old 08-17-2017, 11:41 AM   #4439
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Originally Posted by Nicul15 View Post
Camaro likely dies with the ats?
Why would it?

You do realize that the Camaro also shares its platform with the CTS too, right? And that both the ATS & CTS are getting replaced right around the same time that they're getting killed off.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:45 AM   #4440
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Curious what platform CT5 will end up on. Alpha II or cut-down Omega.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:01 PM   #4441
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Curious what platform CT5 will end up on. Alpha II or cut-down Omega.
Do you think Omega has that much bandwidth in it though? I mean, they'd be hacking out close to a foot of wheelbase to make the CT5 off that.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:05 PM   #4442
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GM did make a big deal about how modular/scaleable the platform is but who knows.

Might end up being Alpha simply because CT5 is rumored to be another tweener car along the lines of the 1st/2nd gen CTS.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:28 PM   #4443
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http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/s...cts/569379001/

CTS dead by 2019.
ATS dead by 2020.
CTS-V is GM's best sedan. How could they kill it??? The V I might understand due to tightening CAFE, but why CTS???

I give up on these guys.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:34 PM   #4444
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CTS-V is GM's best sedan. How could they kill it??? The V I might understand due to tightening CAFE, but why CTS???

I give up on these guys.
Just as "enthusiasts" realize they are getting snowed by BMW
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:39 PM   #4445
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I think Cadillac will be in for troubling times unless they can cement their image. The CTS-V was successful in garnering newfound respect for Cadillac, that has been absent from the marque for decades. The ATS was generating interest, but the sales figures are less encouraging. With all of the name switching and such, after awhile no one will know what Cadillac stands for.

Buick is in for some hard times IMO as well, but ironically it appears that they are having less of an image crisis. Buick just doesn't have the force of convincing a lot of people that they are a serious luxury marque, in line with Lexus and BMW; In fact, Buick looks anemic when compared with those two luxury makes.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:41 PM   #4446
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CTS-V is GM's best sedan. How could they kill it??? The V I might understand due to tightening CAFE, but why CTS???

I give up on these guys.
Again...not a big deal.

As stated above, ATS/CTS/XTS all getting replaced with one sedan (the CT5) due to lackluster industry-wide sedan sales.

You can bet that the next gen Camaro will use the same or similar platform as the CT5, and that the CT5 will likely have a "V" version.

My question earlier though, was whether or not it could mean that Camaro might grow a bit in-size again. If GM is going to replace those three cars, its got to be with something that is at least right in the middle in terms of size, which I'd say is closest to today's CTS...which is bigger than Camaro.

The other burning question is which platform will they use? I don't know anything about "Alpha II" which Fen mentions above....I'm assuming this is something new that is yet to be unveiled. But if the costs can be justified, I could see a smaller Omega as well. Omega is pretty fantastic in terms of weight...heck a base CT6 on Omega weighs about 3,640 lbs for a full size sedan. (The current CTS weighs the same, but its smaller) Shrink that down to CTS size and I'd guess you could be talking 3,300 to 3,450 ish for a base CT5 sedan. Now apply that to Camaro, which should be even lighter in its base form.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:41 PM   #4447
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Just as "enthusiasts" realize they are getting snowed by BMW
Explain "snowed". Outclassed, perhaps. But I can't think of ANY "M" sedan upstaging or outperforming the current CTS-V. In fact, BMWs still have trouble going up against the previous 2nd gen. CTS-V. The CTS-V is Cadillac lone force in the luxury segment.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:44 PM   #4448
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Again...not a big deal.

As stated above, ATS/CTS/XTS all getting replaced with one sedan (the CT5) due to lackluster industry-wide sedan sales.

You can bet that the next gen Camaro will use the same or similar platform as the CT5, and that the CT5 will likely have a "V" version.

My question earlier though, was whether or not it could mean that Camaro might grow a bit in-size again. If GM is going to replace those three cars, its got to be with something that is at least right in the middle in terms of size, which I'd say is closest to today's CTS...which is bigger than Camaro.

The other burning question is which platform will they use? I don't know anything about "Alpha II" which Fen mentions above....I'm assuming this is something new that is yet to be unveiled. But if the costs can be justified, I could see a smaller Omega as well. Omega is pretty fantastic in terms of weight...heck a base CT6 on Omega weighs about 3,640 lbs for a full size sedan. (The current CTS weighs the same, but its smaller) Shrink that down to CTS size and I'd guess you could be talking 3,300 to 3,450 ish for a base CT5 sedan. Now apply that to Camaro, which should be even lighter in its base form.
The two marques need to get their "flair" back. As heavy as the 5th gen Camaro was, it was a sensation. The 2nd gen CTS-V similarly was a legend, as it woke up BMW and Mercedes to the fact of who is the real force in their segment. I'm not sure if the lackluster sales has something to do with price, or loss of image, or poor marketing. All I know is that GM has a small problem on their hands.
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Old 08-17-2017, 01:00 PM   #4449
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Quit blaming GM. Every automaker is dealing with the shift away from sedans.

Read back a few posts and I posted an article about how BMW is basically giving 3-series away and a quarter of Infiniti sales are now going to rental fleet. The sedan market sucks now, it is what it is.
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Old 08-17-2017, 01:36 PM   #4450
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^I will not quit blaming them. I'll stop blaming them when GM stops blaming other factors behind their failed platforms other than their own handling.

When a product of someone fails, they will likely say this or that happened; The fact that it failed to do what it was designed to do must fall first on its creator. Its only then, when one assumes the fault of a failed attempt, that they can improve their products or approach.

Not every automaker is having problems selling their products either. I am not seeing the same type of crisis of products with Toyota, Honda, Hyundai or some other makes. It seems that GM always has a fire going on somewhere. Again I say, GM has to take responsibility and put the right approach behind their products, instead of blaming and cutting them.
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:16 PM   #4451
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^I will not quit blaming them. I'll stop blaming them when GM stops blaming other factors behind their failed platforms other than their own handling.

When a product of someone fails, they will likely say this or that happened; The fact that it failed to do what it was designed to do must fall first on its creator. Its only then, when one assumes the fault of a failed attempt, that they can improve their products or approach.

Not every automaker is having problems selling their products either. I am not seeing the same type of crisis of products with Toyota, Honda, Hyundai or some other makes. It seems that GM always has a fire going on somewhere. Again I say, GM has to take responsibility and put the right approach behind their products, instead of blaming and cutting them.
This isn't like the 80s and 90s when GM spat out crappy passenger cars and then shrugged their shoulders when they didn't sell. They aren't selling now simply because people are buying other types of vehicles, the difference is that for the most part, GM has plenty of that other type of vehicle, and the sales figures for those vehicles reflect that.

Go look at the sedans GM is having issues with right now and tell me exactly what you think they should do to improve sales. I'd love to hear your ideas. The fact of the matter is all of those cars are really damn good cars, but the sedan market across the board has simply collapsed. I know you've been shown the data on this before, you just refuse to accept it for whatever reason. If you haven't noticed other automakers reworking their product mixes, you just haven't been paying attention.

EVERY manufacturer is dealing with a drop in passenger car sales and an uptick in crossovers and light trucks. It's not just GM. Saying that it's their fault for a shift in consumer preference is simply laughable.
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:35 PM   #4452
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I'm not here to defend any side, but when looking at sedan sales, the Charger seems to be doing pretty well (selling mid to high 90k Chargers per year since 2012). I know when I was looking at finally trading in my pony car for a 4 door car that fits my family, the Charger won me over. The CTS-V was close, but a higher price and a slightly less appealing (to me) look put the Charger with the 392 HEMI in my driveway over the CTS-V. The SS/Impala looks too much like a Honda/Toyota/Hyundai, not enough personality. The Impala has sold more than the Charger in recent years, except a drastic decline this year, which the Charger hasn't suffered, yet.
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