LS3 vs 5.0 yote? motor only comparison.

[GossipSquirrelJelena]

Originally Posted by i2disturbedSS

This thread might die but the subject will not. Ppl still talk about the LS1 vs 5.0.

I think the ford fans conceded that battle.

[Redbird555]

Gotta say I didnt read the whole thing lol but heres my take on it.... I own both ford and gm products so I really dont have a dog in the fight. I have ridden in plenty of 5.0's and they pull good but def lack a low end torque factor. However the gearing makes up for it. The 5.0 is an awesome motor and does well in the gt because of how the car was built...

What a lot of people in here ignore (mainly ford guys) is that like mentioned the camaro is a pig when it comes to weight but its not so much static weight... It weighs 300 lbs more which is easily a couple mph in the 1/4. Then lets look at the clutches. The mustang clutch weighs 45 lbs while the camaro's weighs 60. The standard SS wheels are 20" and the standard mustang wheels were 18 up until the 2015 model. The total weight for a camaro wheel and tire is 65 lbs while the mustangs base setup is 54 lbs. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out the MOI on all those parts and come to the conclusion the camaro is crippled in a lot more areas than just static weight. On the dyno you are now spinning 15 lbs more slutch weight along with 10lbs more wheel weight all of which is further away from the center of rotation so a much greater MOI. Then when actually going down the track you can now double the wheel weight penalty pushing the front two. Nevermind the irs out back that has been proven time and time again to sap power.

My ride is a 4th gen z28 and recently I blew up my cammed ls6 that I had in it. So I set out to find a new heartbeat and found a brand new ls3 shortblock. Few weeks later I had it complete and dropped it in the car. The ls3 is completely stock with just bolt ons. Headers, exhaust, stock intake 92mm tb, t56 and 3.90s. However my z28 naturally has lighter wheels and a lightweight twin disk clutch that puts it more in line with the mustang stuff. Here is my dyno, for reference a bolt on 1le got on the same dyno with the same mods and made 410. The 5th gen gets its balls cut off in a lot of ways.



The afr at the collector was right around 12.7, graph shows the tailpipe. The motor had 450 miles on it when dyno so I have no doubt it will pick up a little more as it breaks in. I'd also like to do a crawford ported intake and maybe pickup a few more from there. So ya when put into a more level playing field of drivetrains the ls3 isnt short anywhere over a coyote and the torque curve is much better.

[Fenderaddict2]

Originally Posted by PHXLT1

Not sure if this has ever been dicussed but which motor could bring the highest hp with maintaining street driveability and reliabilty? N/A of course. If anyone has hard facts please post em but if its just opinion , that's fine too.

Tough choice. My head says GM but the peaky nature of the Coyote hits me much, much lower. Both great choices for different reasons.

But if we're saying engine ONLY, like something I'd consider to put in another car, I'd lean GM. If we say engine only, but have to at some point consider them in a Camaro or Mustang, well based on the cars currently available...Mustang. But a year from now, sorry too close to call for me yet.

[rontammy0]

Originally Posted by Fenderaddict2

Tough choice. My head says GM but the peaky nature of the Coyote hits me much, much lower. Both great choices for different reasons.

But if we're saying engine ONLY, like something I'd consider to put in another car, I'd lean GM. If we say engine only, but have to at some point consider them in a Camaro or Mustang, well based on the cars currently available...Mustang. But a year from now, sorry too close to call for me yet.

Not as lot of camaros running ford motors. I've seen 3 mustangs running chevy motors in the last 2 months. There seems to be alot of people leaning the same way as you.

[essess]

Originally Posted by Fenderaddict2

Tough choice. My head says GM but the peaky nature of the Coyote hits me much, much lower. Both great choices for different reasons.

But if we're saying engine ONLY, like something I'd consider to put in another car, I'd lean GM. If we say engine only, but have to at some point consider them in a Camaro or Mustang, well based on the cars currently available...Mustang. But a year from now, sorry too close to call for me yet.

The bigger displacement helps the ls3 here and i think would have, to a certain point, the advantage of making useable power for a street machine easier. But there is a point when going into the extreme realm of power making, that the coyotes ti-vct is going to let it make more power and still be streetable. There is a point where an n/a motor needs to turn more rpms to make more power. An ls3 in full race trim has no choice but to be a chugging spitting mess down low, with no engine vacuum. The coyote will be able to probably not have enough to eliminate some cammyness, but it will still be driveable on the street.

[Fenderaddict2]

Originally Posted by essess

The bigger displacement helps the ls3 here and i think would have, to a certain point, the advantage of making useable power for a street machine easier. But there is a point when going into the extreme realm of power making, that the coyotes ti-vct is going to let it make more power and still be streetable. There is a point where an n/a motor needs to turn more rpms to make more power. An ls3 in full race trim has no choice but to be a chugging spitting mess down low, with no engine vacuum. The coyote will be able to probably not have enough to eliminate some cammyness, but it will still be driveable on the street.

Agreed. In my youth I'd go for low end but as a part time track rat, I've become a sucker for screamer motors.

[thunderkyss]

I'm really impressed that GM has been able to stay with the pushrod engines. It is true that other manufacturers have left push-rods behind, but it wasn't necessarily for better performance. Well, not "better performance" alone. The real push was for better emissions & performance.

If emissions weren't an issue, more manufacturers would have stayed with the OHV pushrod technology. I think. But because of emission requirements, manufacturers like Ford went with small bores. They went with overhead cams so they could spin them faster to get more power out of them.

It's really a testament to GM that they've been able to be emissions compliant with these large bore engines and they haven't had to sacrifice any power either.

[2010reddevil]

The other thing I like about the Coyote vs our engine is when they upgrade cams, they just need to upgrade springs. No rocker arms to dick with, no flimsy pushrods or guide plates, no trunions to blow out and no lifters to wipe out the cam/s. I see so many people having rocker arm trunion issues and blowing out lifters.

[essess]

I think alot of the ls3 cam related problems are user error, ie. Not doing proper pushrod measurements, wrong choices for valve springs, too wild a cam for street, things like that. Not all problems, but ive seen too many people just throw heads and cams on their ride without doing the legwork to ensure all is well, every motor is slightly different and measurements could be the difference of a few horsepower to a wrecked cam/timing setup. That being said, the coyote can run stage 3 comp cams with no spring upgrade required, and tuners are able to keep the full vct sweep with them, so stock idle and screaming 8k power, no piston to valve problems either.

[Firefighter]

The thing that keeps getting missed in the last few posts is that it's ONE Cam vs. FOUR Cams. You get a good set of pushrods, the trunion up grade, springs, Cam and you are at maybe $800 if you do a little bit of research you can figure your pushrod length with a $30 tool and a sharpie. How much do those 4 Cams cost?

I've said it before they are two comparable motors that achieve similar results in different ways.

I prefer to have lighter & smaller packaging with more TQ. I'm born and raised Chevrolet though so it's only natural for me to be this way.

I can see the good points to a higher revving motor even though it's only maybe 1500 rpm and peaky power but honestly not in a fat car like the modern Muscle car is...

Maybe this article will put an end to this thread once the testing is done... http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tec...ngine-shootout

[essess]

Looks like stage 3's go for 1500 so thats a substantial difference. Labor may be cheaper though its actually easier to cam swap a coyote than an ls3. But if your dyi'ing, ls3 takes the win for cam swap pricing. But i dont see what the problem is with 1 vs 4 cams anyway, just because its cheaper doesnt make it better. Coyote motor does not need a head swap for big power so the cam cost advantage gets squashed. There will always be a back and forth between the 2 which is great its fun! Im going ls3 ftw in the contest by 30-40hp

[Firefighter]

There are a number of people making at or around 500RWHP with just a cam swap and bolt ons in a 5th Gen Camaro. That would put you at close to 590 FWHP what does it take to do that with a Yote? I'm seriously asking because IDK.

LS3 heads don't need to be touched until you are looking for the last 25 or so RWHP. The manifold is in the same situation MSD tapped out on an LS3 manifold the FAST is worth maybe 10 HP on anything but a monster motor or FI. Vararam is the last possible manifold that will happen and they have been promising one for 2 years now.

So in reality a CAI, LT'S, Cam and a ported TB with a UDP and you have 500RWHP or so which is about 600 FWHP.

Hell I put down 435/425 with bolt ons and no UDP. I figure with my Cam, Heads, UDP, hopefully and intake and 102mm TB to add over 100/75 to those numbers.

[MagnumForceGB]

Originally Posted by Firefighter

There are a number of people making at or around 500RWHP with just a cam swap and bolt ons in a 5th Gen Camaro. That would put you at close to 590 FWHP what does it take to do that with a Yote? I'm seriously asking because IDK.

LS3 heads don't need to be touched until you are looking for the last 25 or so RWHP. The manifold is in the same situation MSD tapped out on an LS3 manifold the FAST is worth maybe 10 HP on anything but a monster motor or FI. Vararam is the last possible manifold that will happen and they have been promising one for 2 years now.

So in reality a CAI, LT'S, Cam and a ported TB with a UDP and you have 500RWHP or so which is about 600 FWHP.

Hell I put down 435/425 with bolt ons and no UDP. I figure with my Cam, Heads, UDP, hopefully and intake and 102mm TB to add over 100/75 to those numbers.

Stage 3 Cams, Cobra Jet intake, headers and tune, on 93 octane. Throw some E85 and it will be even higher. Oil pump gears, cam springs and you can spin it past 8000 RPM's.

[MagnumForceGB]

Also, last Friday at Thunder Valley I saw a 2015 Mustang 5.0 run 10.11 @ 137 with a ProCharger setup, they are getting the new Coyote motors figured out fast.