[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by fastball

Focus groups brought us the Pontiac Aztec. Bob Lutz notoriously fought them every second he was with GM.

He led BMW and brought the Dodge Viper to the world. Neither of which used focus groups.

I think BMW does now. Their cars reflect it.

Focus groups also brought us the C7, Malibu, CTS, CT6, Chevrolet Volt and GM’s entire full size truck lineup. True, Bob didn't like focus groups. But he didn't kill the process and sometimes listened to them.

Focus groups were not the reason the Aztec sucked. Internal functions (Manufacturing, Finance, Purchasing) drove deviation from the concept vehicle that focus groups loved into the Frankenstein that it was.

Top picture is what focus groups saw. Bottom picture is what customers got.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Focus groups also brought us the C7, Malibu, CTS, CT6, Chevrolet Volt and GM’s entire full size truck lineup. Focus groups were not the reason the Aztec sucked. Internal functions (Manufacturing, Finance, Purchasing) drove deviation from the concept vehicle that focus groups loved into the Frankenstein that it was.

The CTS is dead. The Volt is almost dead, probably will be killed in the next 2 years. The CT6 is just now getting a real V8 with the V-Sport.

[CamaroSS50]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Focus groups also brought us the C7, Malibu, CTS, CT6, Chevrolet Volt and GM’s entire full size truck lineup. True, Bob didn't like focus groups. But he didn't kill the process and sometimes listened to them.

Focus groups were not the reason the Aztec sucked. Internal functions (Manufacturing, Finance, Purchasing) drove deviation from the concept vehicle that focus groups loved into the Frankenstein that it was.

Top picture is what focus groups saw. Bottom picture is what customers got.

C'mon, defending focus groups?

"The Aztek was commissioned in the mid-1990s by then-GM chairman John G. Smale, a former Proctor & Gamble CEO who was convinced that GM needed an edgy, unusual vehicle that would turn heads. GM spent a fortune on focus groups, and the Aztek’s design was vetted by an endless series of committees.

No single vision was allowed to prevail as the Aztek’s shape and details were tweaked and altered."

It was a focused group creation.

BTW, the difference in the photos are minimal. Neither should have made it to market.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by CamaroSS50

C'mon, defending focus groups?

"The Aztek was commissioned in the mid-1990s by then-GM chairman John G. Smale, a former Proctor & Gamble CEO who was convinced that GM needed an edgy, unusual vehicle that would turn heads. GM spent a fortune on focus groups, and the Aztek’s design was vetted by an endless series of committees.

No single vision was allowed to prevail as the Aztek’s shape and details were tweaked and altered."

It was a focused group creation.

BTW, the difference in the photos are minimal. Neither should have made it to market.

No. Just telling the truth. I was freakin' there. Can you say that? I can, because I was. Smale was from P&G and he was brought in to revive GM's Marketing culture. As a result, people listened to Marketing (capitalized when I'm talking about the department as opposed to the process) probably more than was merited. That does not, however, mean that everything was run by focus groups. There is one line that rings true in what you posted above. I highlighted it in BLUE. But the issue there was that separate groups Engineering, Manufacturing, Purchasing, Finance were allowed to mandate changes to the original design based on what made life easier for their particular functions.

Manufacturing basically said "we can't bend metal that way at high volume....change the lines" Purchasing basically said "we need to go with Supplier B because their price is lower than Supplier A (who provided the design and parts for the concept), but we have to use their part design. Finance basically said "We can't include this and make a business case, take this out" and when the smoke cleared, the bottom picture was the result.

the fact that you don't see much difference in the two speaks volumes. Neither could, should, or would be produced today, but that's looking through 2018 eyes. Looking at the top photo with 1999 eyes would tell a different story. It was a concept of the year winner in 1999, thus the energy to work to bring it to market.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

No. Just telling the truth. I was freakin' there. Can you say that? I can, because I was. Smale was from P&G and he was brought in to revive GM's Marketing culture. As a result, people listened to Marketing (capitalized when I'm talking about the department as opposed to the process) probably more than was merited. That does not, however, mean that everything was run by focus groups. There is one line that rings true in what you posted above. I highlighted it in BLUE. But the issue there was that separate groups Engineering, Manufacturing, Purchasing, Finance were allowed to mandate changes to the original design based on what made life easier for their particular functions.

Manufacturing basically said "we can't bend metal that way at high volume....change the lines" Purchasing basically said "we need to go with Supplier B because their price is lower than Supplier A (who provided the design and parts for the concept), but we have to use their part design. Finance basically said "We can't include this and make a business case, take this out" and when the smoke cleared, the bottom picture was the result.

the fact that you don't see much difference in the two speaks volumes. Neither could, should, or would be produced today, but that's looking through 2018 eyes. Looking at the top photo with 1999 eyes would tell a different story. It was a concept of the year winner in 1999, thus the energy to work to bring it to market.

Dude, it was a dud the second it hit the market in 1999. I don’t think anyone is looking at it through 2018 glasses. I remember seeing it for the first time at the 1999 Auto show and everyone was telling the poor girl on the Pontiac stage how fugly it was. I felt sorry for her.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by fastball

Focus groups brought us the Pontiac Aztec. Bob Lutz notoriously fought them every second he was with GM.

He led BMW and brought the Dodge Viper to the world. Neither of which used focus groups.

I think BMW does now. Their cars reflect it.

Sorry this is not entirely true. The Aztec came about because it had to be built off of the U-Van architecture (min-can) which drove a high cowl destroying the proportions of the pretty decent looking show car.

[CamaroSS50]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

No. Just telling the truth. I was freakin' there. Can you say that? I can, because I was. Smale was from P&G and he was brought in to revive GM's Marketing culture. As a result, people listened to Marketing (capitalized when I'm talking about the department as opposed to the process) probably more than was merited. That does not, however, mean that everything was run by focus groups. There is one line that rings true in what you posted above. I highlighted it in BLUE. But the issue there was that separate groups Engineering, Manufacturing, Purchasing, Finance were allowed to mandate changes to the original design based on what made life easier for their particular functions.

Manufacturing basically said "we can't bend metal that way at high volume....change the lines" Purchasing basically said "we need to go with Supplier B because their price is lower than Supplier A (who provided the design and parts for the concept), but we have to use their part design. Finance basically said "We can't include this and make a business case, take this out" and when the smoke cleared, the bottom picture was the result.

The quote is from Globe & Mail (Canada's version of the NY Times).

The accountants, not marketing, instructed it be built on a mini-van platform. Hardly changed its essence.

And the issues you cite are faced by every car company.

Focus groups kill.

Stay away from focus groups.

[CamaroSS50]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Sorry this is not entirely true. The Aztec came about because it had to be built off of the U-Van architecture (min-can) which drove a high cowl destroying the proportions of the pretty decent looking show car.

Yes, it had to be built on a mini-van platform.

It never had anything endearing before this.

"Bob Lutz, who took over the top product job at GM in the aftermath of the Aztek, has claimed that the design was presented to focus groups who felt about the thing the way we all felt about it when we first saw it: They hated it. Well, actually Lutz claimed that the market-research respondents said, “I wouldn’t take it as a gift.” So convinced were the powers that be of the essential rightness of the vehicle, though, that this didn’t kill the Aztek, either."

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by CamaroSS50

Yes, it had to be built on a mini-van platform.

It never had anything endearing before this.

"Bob Lutz, who took over the top product job at GM in the aftermath of the Aztek, has claimed that the design was presented to focus groups who felt about the thing the way we all felt about it when we first saw it: They hated it. Well, actually Lutz claimed that the market-research respondents said, “I wouldn’t take it as a gift.” So convinced were the powers that be of the essential rightness of the vehicle, though, that this didn’t kill the Aztek, either."

And yet the Rendezvous was pretty much a success. Hmmmmmmm

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by fastball

Dude, it was a dud the second it hit the market in 1999. I don’t think anyone is looking at it through 2018 glasses. I remember seeing it for the first time at the 1999 Auto show and everyone was telling the poor girl on the Pontiac stage how fugly it was. I felt sorry for her.

Interesting. Considering it was introduced in 2002. The 1999 was a concept that was only shown at one or two specific auto shows.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by CamaroSS50

The quote is from Globe & Mail (Canada's version of the NY Times).

The accountants, not marketing, instructed it be built on a mini-van platform. Hardly changed its essence.

And the issues you cite are faced by every car company.

Focus groups kill.

Stay away from focus groups.

Wrong again. The vehicle was assigned from Day 1 to Anna Kretz, Vehicle Line Executive for U-Van. Accountant would not even know or care about it until Anna and her team put together the business case for it. I repeat. I was there. I don’t need to read the Globe & Mail.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Interesting. Considering it was introduced in 2002. The 1999 was a concept that was only shown at one or two specific auto shows.

It went into production in July of 2000 as a 2001 model. The concept was released in 1999.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by CamaroSS50

Yes, it had to be built on a mini-van platform.

It never had anything endearing before this.

"Bob Lutz, who took over the top product job at GM in the aftermath of the Aztek, has claimed that the design was presented to focus groups who felt about the thing the way we all felt about it when we first saw it: They hated it. Well, actually Lutz claimed that the market-research respondents said, “I wouldn’t take it as a gift.” So convinced were the powers that be of the essential rightness of the vehicle, though, that this didn’t kill the Aztek, either."

And that statement from Bob Lutz is correct, but this was a focus group that happened AFTER the changes had been made and committed. There are several types of “focus group”. None of them have power to drive a decision. They are used to gauge potential consumer sentiment. There are concept focus groups, like the one that reacted very positively to the original concept. They are used very early in the development process. They are exposed to 2-D properties, drawings, charts, word descriptions of some of the features and functionality and their reactions and preferences are studied.

Then as design get finalized, sometimes, but not always, focus groups are exposed to near production 3-D properties in what are called “confirmation clinics”. Bob Lutz was talking about the outcome of a confirmation clinic. In this case, the results of the confirmation clinic were horrible, but it was too late in the process to do anything about it. The choices were kill it, or go to market as is. Nobody in power had the guts to kill it, so the vehicle went to market anyway. Under Bob, other vehicles were killed for less than the issues Aztec went to market with. The learning from that episode was to put the confirmation clinics earlier in the vehicle development process. Early enough to react to the results if major changes are required. The interpretation that “focus groups designed” any vehicle is misinformed and just plain wrong. That’s like saying crossing guards investigate traffic accidents.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by fastball

It went into production in July of 2000 as a 2001 model. The concept was released in 1999.

Actually, you are right. The Aztec went into production as a 2001. The Rendezvous (same platform) was the 2002. The concept was 1999 as we both stated, but it was only shown in one or two auto shows.