Electric Vehicles

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by jamala00

Have fun regurgitating the same talking point over and over and over. It's all these EV threads ever end up being. Maybe one day you'll actually convince someone... Who knows... I have my doubts

Personally, I don't understand why Pro EV guys sit on a ICE muscle car forum and try to convince non EV buyers why their thoughts/beliefs are misplaced/misguided. Why not just go on EV forums and talk with like minded people about your EV?

Either way.... I'm done banging my head against a wall. The only thing that is for certain when it comes to EV is "Time will Tell". I'll just wait an see...

Peace...

For me, I am multi-faceted. I am not a muscle car or sports car guy to the exclusion of all else. I like having a tool for every job. I will always have my Camaro or something like it. I will always have my MR2 or something like it. Those are “me” cars. But I’ll also have one or two “we” cars in the garage. Cars for commuting to work (who does that anymore?) going to the supermarket, going on trips, both short and long. Fact of the matter is, there are certain things that we do as a family where the Camaro just flat out doesn’t work. So we use the SRX. Or, as of next week we’ll probably use the Model Y.

As for presence on EV sites? I’m there too. Actually wind up having discussions about sports cars and muscle cars on those sites. When I challenge their views on the rationality of performance vehicles they luv me about as much as you guys do on this thread.

I didn’t start this thread and quite frankly would not have started it here. But since it is here I feel compelled to chime in with details that are at my disposal because of what I do every day for a living. I’m actually talking to all these EV car companies. All the ones you’ve heard of and a ton of them that you haven’t. Yet. My team does work for many of them. And I have access to a ridiculous amount of data. Some of the experts that are quoted on EV growth rates, EV charger infrastructure growth, sources (today and future) of battery minerals and rare earth metals are people that I talk to frequently and in some cases work beside. So I’m really just trying to help this thread by bringing data that sometimes agrees with and sometimes disagrees with what’s being passed along as “knowledge”. I do have to be careful when I do that because some of the information I have is only available for pay, so I do pull back on a lot of stuff.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by jamala00

Personally, I don't understand why Pro EV guys sit on a ICE muscle car forum and try to convince non EV buyers why their thoughts/beliefs are misplaced/misguided. Why not just go on EV forums and talk with like minded people about your EV?

This just says with what is wrong with society. You just want an echo chamber. Someone with a different view/opinion not welcome! Why do we have a general automotive section? Mustang fan? get out! Truck fan? Get out of this site and go to a truck forum! Close this section of the forum and keep it Camaro only! Right?

I am not here and I don't think Martin is here to convince anyone to buy an EV.

I do not care if you like EV's or not. I don't care if you buy one. But if there is wrong info, I will chime in.

Even after accurate info is posted and you say, " EV's are not for me" that is fine. Again not here to convince you of anything.

I just care about the info posted is correct.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

This just says with what is wrong with society. You just want an echo chamber. Someone with a different view/opinion not welcome! Why do we have a general automotive section? Mustang fan? get out! Truck fan? Get out of this site and go to a truck forum! Close this section of the forum and keep it Camaro only! Right?

I am not here and I don't think Martin is here to convince anyone to buy an EV.

I do not care if you like EV's or not. I don't care if you buy one. But if there is wrong info, I will chime in.

Even after accurate info is posted and you say, " EV's are not for me" that is fine. Again not here to convince you of anything.

I just care about the info posted is correct.

Very well said. I’m not here to try to sway anybody to buy an EV. Buy what you want. It’s just when all the comments are made about being forced to buy EVs (nobody’s forcing anybody) and EVs aren’t viable because <fill in the blanks> or similar patently false statements, I try to reply with data. My company has a ton of data so I share a bit of it here. You’d be surprised what I charge clients for some of the data I’ve provided for free here.

I like EVs. I’d buy a Corvette Z06 in a heartbeat if I had that sorta cash laying around and a place to park it. I am not going to try to convince any of you to buy anything.

[The Zebra]

A prime issue in regards to the EV being pushed out in an all or none effort is that is being done under the guise that it a major pollution reducer, which it is not. Net pollution reduction on an EV doesn't begin until something like 80,000 miles in.
As we go partially EV, the government is making sure that gasoline is uncomfortably expensive. If we go all EV, our ability to travel conveniently will be compromised or eliminated. Period.

[genxer]

Originally Posted by The Zebra

A prime issue in regards to the EV being pushed out in an all or none effort is that is being done under the guise that it a major pollution reducer, which it is not. Net pollution reduction on an EV doesn't begin until something like 80,000 miles in.
As we go partially EV, the government is making sure that gasoline is uncomfortably expensive. If we go all EV, our ability to travel conveniently will be compromised or eliminated. Period.

That rough 80k miles is also just a carbon measure, an overweighting.

The cafe fleet avg. keeps going up. 58 mpg for '27-'32 popped up in a quick search.

When companies keep and promote loss making EVs and cancel a low mpg car, that's all the evidence folks here need to see to judge whether force is in play. Companies have even cancelled their high mpg cars. Musk is the only company doing well with EV here. Toyota probably has unrealized ability to have a strong EV business.

[genxer]

You took me wrong. I was backing you with a 'right, when they only bring up carbon, it's patently a manipulation of pollution measurement'.

And then, I was trying to counter another's force comment with a 'people can tell force, and don't need an authority to say they're being pissed on'.

[The Zebra]

Originally Posted by genxer

You took me wrong. I was backing you with a 'right, when they only bring up carbon, it's patently a manipulation of pollution measurement'.

And then, I was trying to counter another's force comment with a 'people can tell force, and don't need an authority to say they're being pissed on'.

I see, thanks for the clarity.

[docwra]

Originally Posted by jamala00

Have fun regurgitating the same talking point over and over and over. It's all these EV threads ever end up being. Maybe one day you'll actually convince someone... Who knows... I have my doubts

Personally, I don't understand why Pro EV guys sit on a ICE muscle car forum and try to convince non EV buyers why their thoughts/beliefs are misplaced/misguided. Why not just go on EV forums and talk with like minded people about your EV?

Im on this forum as I own a 2014 Z28. Ive also got an MR2 roadster, V10 and W12 Phaetons, an E82 135i, an old V8 Range Rover and a Citroen SM. Im a car guy.

Im on this thread as I have real life experience of EVs and was getting tired of the bullshit people that dont own EVs were posting. People ..... like you in fact.

The same as Martinjlm, Im not trying to convince anyone of anything, Im just passing on gained information and real life experience. Like youre supposed to with an internet forum.

So now youve said your rather pointless piece, why dont you piss off onto another thread where you can actually give useful input from your own experience rather than spamming this one up with false equivalences and bullshit you have read on biased websites/heard from similarly closed minded people?

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by docwra

Im on this forum as I own a 2014 Z28. Ive also got an MR2 roadster, V10 and W12 Phaetons, an E82 135i, an old V8 Range Rover and a Citroen SM. Im a car guy.

Im on this thread as I have real life experience of EVs and was getting tired of the bullshit people that dont own EVs were posting. People ..... like you in fact.

The same as Martinjlm, Im not trying to convince anyone of anything, Im just passing on gained information and real life experience. Like youre supposed to with an internet forum.

So now youve said your rather pointless piece, why dont you piss off onto another thread where you can actually give useful input from your own experience rather than spamming this one up with false equivalences and bullshit you have read on biased websites/heard from similarly closed minded people?

I agree with what he said. If anyone spouts pointless BS on this thread, it ain't him, it's the guy who drives a gas guzzling carbon spewing car, works in one of the most polluting industries in existence, but still comes on the forum and wraps himself in his holier than thou EV robes and spouts about how great things are in the supposedly carbon neutral UK.

We fought a war a couple of hundred years ago so we didn't have to listen to what British 'subjects' or 'royalty' had to say. Unlike you, we're what you call citizens, we don't have to bend the knee and kiss the ring. Where Britain is now is certainly NOT where the US will be in 5 years.

Newsflash, you don't have to own an EV to know that they suck. Martinjlm laid it out pretty well with his 20% comment. If you want fast charging and long battery life 80% charge and up doesn't exist for you, nor does 20% and down. So that mythical 300 mile range is really only 180 miles, under optimal conditions, even less if it's cold or you want to run the AC, or you have a bunch of stuff in the car. That 30 minute charge time he touted, highly misleading since that wasn't 30 minutes for a full charge, it was 30 minutes to charge 35%.

I really don't mind people liking their EVs. Different strokes for different folks. Some folks bought Yugos when they came out. I thought they were garbage, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

What I do dislike is people who try to gaslight me and others with BS about how great EVs are and how this whole EV push isn't the result of government mandates when anyone with even minimal powers of observation and minimal IQ can see that it's entirely due to mandates.

But I'm cheered by all the great news about Ford, GM, Honda, and Stellantis getting hosed in the EV market. Hopefully all four of those CEOs will end up out of work in the near future without too much damage to the rank and file workers who are just trying to make a living.

Cheers.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

I agree with what he said. If anyone spouts pointless BS on this thread, it ain't him, it's the guy who drives a gas guzzling carbon spewing car, works in one of the most polluting industries in existence, but still comes on the forum and wraps himself in his holier than thou EV robes and spouts about how great things are in the supposedly carbon neutral UK.

We fought a war a couple of hundred years ago so we didn't have to listen to what British 'subjects' or 'royalty' had to say. Unlike you, we're what you call citizens, we don't have to bend the knee and kiss the ring. Where Britain is now is certainly NOT where the US will be in 5 years.

Newsflash, you don't have to own an EV to know that they suck. Martinjlm laid it out pretty well with his 20% comment. If you want fast charging and long battery life 80% charge and up doesn't exist for you, nor does 20% and down. So that mythical 300 mile range is really only 180 miles, under optimal conditions, even less if it's cold or you want to run the AC, or you have a bunch of stuff in the car. That 30 minute charge time he touted, highly misleading since that wasn't 30 minutes for a full charge, it was 30 minutes to charge 35%.

I really don't mind people liking their EVs. Different strokes for different folks. Some folks bought Yugos when they came out. I thought they were garbage, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

What I do dislike is people who try to gaslight me and others with BS about how great EVs are and how this whole EV push isn't the result of government mandates when anyone with even minimal powers of observation and minimal IQ can see that it's entirely due to mandates.

But I'm cheered by all the great news about Ford, GM, Honda, and Stellantis getting hosed in the EV market. Hopefully all four of those CEOs will end up out of work in the near future without too much damage to the rank and file workers who are just trying to make a living.

Cheers.

To be clear, the 20-80% pretty much applies just to charging time. Battery life for the newer lithium ion chemistries is much less sensitive to deep cycling (consistently going from 100% to near 0%)

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

To be clear, the 20-80% pretty much applies just to charging time. Battery life for the newer lithium ion chemistries is much less sensitive to deep cycling (consistently going from 100% to near 0%)

That's a valid point. So a consumer's options are to only use 60% of the battery and 60% of the range and get 'quick' (LOL 30 minutes plus) charging times...

OR

...try to get all of the range, but better pack your hiking boots for when you get stranded, and a cake and candles so you can celebrate your birthday while you're charging.

Got it.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

That's a valid point. So a consumer's options are to only use 60% of the battery and 60% of the range and get 'quick' (LOL 30 minutes plus) charging times...

OR

...try to get all of the range, but better pack your hiking boots for when you get stranded, and a cake and candles so you can celebrate your birthday while you're charging.

Got it.

No. A consumer’s options are to charge to 100% every night. When they go on long trips, schedule to get to your recharge points before you drop below 20% then only charge to 80% unless you have a lot of time on your hands. Rinse repeat. Car & Driver just did a really interesting piece for part of the review they’re doing for their EV of the Year contest. They took each of their candidates and drove them for 10 hours, including charging time, to see how far they could travel in 10 hours. https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ange-10-hours/

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

No. A consumer’s options are to charge to 100% every night. When they go on long trips, schedule to get to your recharge points before you drop below 20% then only charge to 80% unless you have a lot of time on your hands. Rinse repeat. Car & Driver just did a really interesting piece for part of the review they’re doing for their EV of the Year contest. They took each of their candidates and drove them for 10 hours, including charging time, to see how far they could travel in 10 hours. https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ange-10-hours/

Come on brother. Don't gaslight. Don't ignore obvious weaknesses in the point you're trying to make.

1. Topping off at the beginning only eliminates that top 20% on the first leg of your journey. After that you're right back to 60% of range or long charge times.

2. Only about 60% of Americans own their own homes and far fewer own homes that are set up for EV charging. All of those people are not covered by your hypothetical situation, so roughly half the country can't do what you described.

3. You assume that charging stations are located exactly where they need to be in order to enable that 10 hour distance. The reality is that charging stations are almost certainly NOT going to be located right where they're needed and talk about what may be true in the future is just that, talk, not reality.

4. Your hypothetical assumes optimal conditions. What if it's 25 degrees outside and I have two passengers and a couple of hundred pounds of gear? Suddenly those C&D numbers don't work anymore.

Whoops, sorry Mr. Consumer, suddenly that 10 hours is 20 hours or more and you're spending lots of 'quality' time searching for a charging station, sitting at a Buc Ee's, or walking down the side of a highway in the rain instead of at your destination.

I'm all for debate, it can help get to the truth. I'm not a fan of debate where one side ignores known undisputed facts that detract from their argument.

You ignore access to charing issues at home, limited availability of chargers on the road, less than optimal EV driving conditions, excessively long charge times...and on and on. When those come up, suddenly we're talking about the future where supposedly those won't be an issue anymore.

As a former economist with the US Army Corps of Engineers I'm very familiar with projections; most of them are utter self serving garbage.

Any projections beyond a few years out are highly speculative and should be viewed with a lot of skepticism. Projections by people who have a dog in the fight (for example consultants in that industry) should be ignored completely.

[The Zebra]

[QUOTE=Wyzz Kydd;11375330]
"3. You assume that charging stations are located exactly where they need to be in order to enable that 10 hour distance. The reality is that charging stations are almost certainly NOT going to be located right where they're needed"


And then get in line and wait 30 min plus per person ahead of you