[Number 3]

Originally Posted by LesserO2Evils

This is EXACTLY how I feel. Ford is BRINGING IT!

Well late this year we will see the GT350 in production and we have no announcement or hint what a GT500 might be. So I wouldn't exactly say they are "bringing it".

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Well late this year we will see the GT350 in production and we have no announcement or hint what a GT500 might be. So I wouldn't exactly say they are "bringing it".

Well, based on your logic, Chevy isn't bringing anything. We have no ideas, well nothing 100%, on the next gen Camaro. We know basically nothing about the 6th gen.

[newb]

And what happens when the GT350 is only marginally faster than a ZL1 and the 350R marginally faster than the current Z/28?

For all of their fancy tech I have seen nothing on a stat sheet that makes me believe they have created a GTR killer. They have taken ZL1 suspension added a motor making less power than a ZL1 in a car only a couple hundred pounds (assumed) lighter. What about that formula says there will be an order of magnitude improvement in performance?

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Well, based on your logic, Chevy isn't bringing anything. We have no ideas, well nothing 100%, on the next gen Camaro. We know basically nothing about the 6th gen.

Oh, I never meant to imply GM was bringing anything. I expect some great things coming. But Ford showing a very late, by their own announcement, GT350 and R, showing a GT that is two years out and a 2017 Raptor, well Ford is just reaching for their own future and not really "bringing it"

[LesserO2Evils]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Well late this year we will see the GT350 in production and we have no announcement or hint what a GT500 might be. So I wouldn't exactly say they are "bringing it".

I think it is safe to say that a 500+ hp, fpc, NA engine is "bringing it". Esp when GMs best retort, to date is a 650hp engine in a $90k+ Z06. Ford was making more HP than that in 2013 in a MUSTANG for $55-60k. And, the GT350 Is just a sample of what is to come. I think it is COMPLETELY safe and justified to say that Ford is "bringing it". Just as Dodge is(707hp, anyone?) Ive said it before and Ill say it again.... automotive enthusiests are about NUMBERS.... Automotive MANUFACTURERS are about SALES. GM is in a corner. I know they can CRUSH(not just equal) the other guys. But they have to take a few risks to do it. I want GM to fight. The fight has been brought to them. Z28 is a masterpiece. But that car is not "Average Joe". Camaro used to be the poor man's Corvette. When other manufacturers are making cars that can compete and/or BETTER a Vette, EVERYONE needs to be on notice.
Im just saying, give respect where respect is due. This isnt 2000. GM has competition now. Will they answer the call? I freakin hope so.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by LesserO2Evils

I think it is safe to say that a 500+ hp, fpc, NA engine is "bringing it". Esp when GMs best retort, to date is a 650hp engine in a $90k+ Z06. Ford was making more HP than that in 2013 in a MUSTANG for $55-60k. And, the GT350 Is just a sample of what is to come. I think it is COMPLETELY safe and justified to say that Ford is "bringing it". Just as Dodge is. Ive said it before and Ill say it again.... automotive enthusiests are about NUMBERS.... Automotive MANUFACTURERS are about SALES. GM is in a corner. I know they can CRUSH(not just equal) the other guys. But they have to take a few risks to do it. I want GM to fight. The fight has been brought to them. Z28 is a masterpiece. But that car is not "Average Joe". Camaro used to be the poor man's Corvette. When other manufacturers are making cars that can compete and/or BETTER a Vette, EVERYONE needs to be on notice.

Start comparing apples to apples, the GT500 has never been competition for the Z06. So comparing these two is pointless. Let's move to it's actual intended competition, the Hellcat. It's the same price point and beats the GT500 soundly. The new GT500 will I am sure beat the Hellcat, but again that's the really the only competition. I don't mention the ZL1 as competition for one reason...balance. The ZL1 handles equally as well as the power it produces. This isn't to say the GT500 and Hellcat are boats that won't steer, but they don't emphasis handling like the ZL1 did.

And please list these other cars built in America that cost the same or lower and can best a Vette. And not just in a straight line, since the Vette was never meant to excel in straight lines.

Now I say all that to say this, I agree Ford is stepping up...they have to or they are going to be left behind. Dodge one upped them with the Hellcat, Chevy did with the 1LE, ZL1 and Z/28. I didn't expect Ford to roll over and die, but I don't believe stats are the only key to performance either. When we see it on the track, then we can start talking about what needs to be done.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Oh, I never meant to imply GM was bringing anything. I expect some great things coming. But Ford showing a very late, by their own announcement, GT350 and R, showing a GT that is two years out and a 2017 Raptor, well Ford is just reaching for their own future and not really "bringing it"

You're just ignoring that Ford is well ahead of Chevy with the new Mustang. Ford has already revealed a car that the Camaro won't have an answer for. The GT500 will probably be even more powerful than the last one. The Mustang has the benefit of receiving what ever Ford can dream up as its engines. The Camaro is stuck with whatever GM develops for the Corvette. The GT500 has no limit on its output but the Camaro will likely be capped below the 650 hp of the Z06. We know it, Ford knows it and Dodge knows it. Ford doesn't have to wait for Chevy to reveal the Camaro before they know what will be powering it, all they have to do is look at the Corvette and know the Camaro will not make more power.

[LesserO2Evils]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Start comparing apples to apples, the GT500 has never been competition for the Z06. So comparing these two is pointless. Let's move to it's actual intended competition, the Hellcat. It's the same price point and beats the GT500 soundly. The new GT500 will I am sure beat the Hellcat, but again that's the really the only competition. I don't mention the ZL1 as competition for one reason...balance. The ZL1 handles equally as well as the power it produces. This isn't to say the GT500 and Hellcat are boats that won't steer, but they don't emphasis handling like the ZL1 did.

And please list these other cars built in America that cost the same or lower and can best a Vette. And not just in a straight line, since the Vette was never meant to excel in straight lines.

Now I say all that to say this, I agree Ford is stepping up...they have to or they are going to be left behind. Dodge one upped them with the Hellcat, Chevy did with the 1LE, ZL1 and Z/28. I didn't expect Ford to roll over and die, but I don't believe stats are the only key to performance either. When we see it on the track, then we can start talking about what needs to be done.

Apples to apples? Ok. So I shouldnt compare a Vette to a GT500? Fine. How bout I do what you are suggesting, and compare the Ford to the ZL1? Bc the Hellcat was not even in production when the GT500 was putting out 662hp. What exactly do you think Dodge's target was? The 580hp ZL1? No. So... comparing apples to apples, and line up that GT500 and ZL1. Care to place any wagers on the outcome? Dont give me the ZL1 "handles better" BS. THAT IS NOT "apples to apples". Both the ZL1 and the GT500 are brute force cars. They are NOT intended to be "track cars", though BOTH handle admirably, they are both stoplight bruisers. So any "superior handling" argument is null and void. Handling is for the Boss 302 and Z28. Look... Im not trying to bash any car(except Hondas lol) but if I am to keep things in perspective, its only fair that everyone else does too.
Ford IS now a force to be reckoned with. In the late 90s and 2000s, they were a joke. They stepped up. Got to give them props.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

You're just ignoring that Ford is well ahead of Chevy with the new Mustang. Ford has already revealed a car that the Camaro won't have an answer for. The GT500 will probably be even more powerful than the last one. The Mustang has the benefit of receiving what ever Ford can dream up as its engines. The Camaro is stuck with whatever GM develops for the Corvette. The GT500 has no limit on its output but the Camaro will likely be capped below the 650 hp of the Z06. We know it, Ford knows it and Dodge knows it. Ford doesn't have to wait for Chevy to reveal the Camaro before they know what will be powering it, all they have to do is look at the Corvette and know the Camaro will not make more power.

Oh, come on now.

The Mustang has been about a year ahead of the Camaro since the Camaro was launched. Or you could say later. Remember the Camaro launched and had IRS and a 300 + HP V6 and a 400 + HP V8.

I very seriously doubt the new Camaro will not challenge the new Mustang. You must be full of dark and negative thoughts if you don't think the Gen 6 Camaro will be at least a match for the current Mustang. It should be on par for weight and have a 20 plus HP advantage.

You have no clue what a GT500 brings and you further have less of a clue as to what GM will counter with if not beat to the market. Of course neither do I

And as for the Camaro being "stuck"????? Where does that come from? The Corvette never got the LSA and the Camaro got an much improved version from what was in the Cadillac. Has GM not demonstrated to you that the Camaro is it's own car and will get decisions made on merit? Of course the Camaro benefits from the Corvette. But to say the Camaro is limited and could therefore never challenge a Ford entry is just silly guessing. We don't and can't know.

Me? I hope to the Lord in Heaven GM isn't stupid enough to get into a HP numbers game. It is balanced, overall performance. And I'm pretty sure a ZL1 and Z/28 will both beat a Hellcat around any course you could name.

Now I'm just guessing here, but GM powertrain still has engineers working. They go to work every day. And just like everyone now bashing GM for not showing us the Camaro, you somehow expect to know what GM has in store????? I will guess a LOT. I know we won't know about it for some time because it is very easy to keep a new powertrain secret. Much easier because you don't nee camo to cover it.

You assume to much, good sir. Be positive and of good spirit. Ford will not win in the end. And if you don't think the GT350 and R are responses to the Z/28 you truly are faint of heart. Ford is responding. They are leading in sales because they have the newer car. But there newer car with a Track Pack couldn't beat a 1LE.

[LesserO2Evils]

Would like to clarifey that I do believe the F6 will be MORE than competition for the new Mustang. Its just the higher end models Im concerned about. Looks like the ceiling is 650hp(C7z).

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by LesserO2Evils

Apples to apples? Ok. So I shouldnt compare a Vette to a GT500? Fine. How bout I do what you are suggesting, and compare the Ford to the ZL1? Bc the Hellcat was not even in production when the GT500 was putting out 662hp. What exactly do you think Dodge's target was? The 580hp ZL1? No. So... comparing apples to apples, and line up that GT500 and ZL1. Care to place any wagers on the outcome? Dont give me the ZL1 "handles better" BS. THAT IS NOT "apples to apples". Both the ZL1 and the GT500 are brute force cars. They are NOT intended to be "track cars", though BOTH handle admirably, they are both stoplight bruisers. So any "superior handling" argument is null and void. Handling is for the Boss 302 and Z28. Look... Im not trying to bash any car(except Hondas lol) but if I am to keep things in perspective, its only fair that everyone else does too.
Ford IS now a force to be reckoned with. In the late 90s and 2000s, they were a joke. They stepped up. Got to give them props.

The 1LE was almost exactly 1 sec slower than the GT500 at VIR, so in what world do you think it is built for anything more than straight line? The ZL1 was 3 seconds faster with almost a hundred less HP. Where do you think the 1LE got it's handling technology from? The ZL1. So yes the ZL1 is not a pure stoplight bruiser which the GT500 clearly is. If it was then it would not have laid the groundwork for the 1LE and it would be slower on a track than the GT500 due to it's HP deficit. Again I'm not disagreeing the GT500 is faster in a drag race than the ZL1. And since the ZL1 came out after the GT500, doesn't it seem like GM would have tried harder to make it more even? Instead they chose to simply increase performance in all areas and not go for the peak HP title, which is exactly what Dodge did. Let's not forget the Z/28 has had no competition until the new GT350R was announced, and good for Ford.

[LesserO2Evils]

I am hoping SO FREAKIN BAD for like a 650hp Camaro!!! Id be 1st in line.

[z28camaro2471]

Amen to #3.

At the end of the day, Ford has no answer to the Corvette. That's the end game right there. The Camaro/Mustang battle is for fun (and of course $) for GM. It's everything for Ford.

On top of that, did you see the 200 mph Lincoln? Yeah, me neither.

[LesserO2Evils]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

And since the ZL1 came out after the GT500, doesn't it seem like GM would have tried harder to make it more even? Instead they chose to simply increase performance in all areas and not go for the peak HP title, which is exactly what Dodge did.

You do realize that when the ZL1 came out that is WAS INITIALLY a higher HP rating than the GT500, right? 580 vs 550. So yes. GM WAS trying to compete in hp numbers. The next year ford completely redesigned the GT 500 with a 5.8L engine and jumped to 662hp. A response. That response is what Im getting at. I want GM to RESPOND and decimate. I dont give a crap about ford or the GT500. But I DO care about owning a car manufacturered by an automaker that gives its customers what they want. If you think the largest majority of buyers want a car that can pull 1.5Gs on a slalom or AutoX course, you are sadly mistaken. Look at the Z28s sales to confirm that. They want a badass. A car that when you pull into the parking lot people FEEL IT. Leave the uber handling for the Corvette. That is it's nitch. Give Camaro owners a CAMARO! A street brawler. For all of GMs attempts to mimic the musclecars of old, they seem to have forgoten this.