Spun bearing

[Astatenate]

Originally Posted by LevonH

It's not about the pump. More about returning oil to the pan. Gravity can only do so much. There's also a difference between high pressure and high volume pumps.You need to ensure that theres enough oil in the pan to pump baseed onthe flow from the pump and return to the pan.
During higher RPM operation theres lots of oil up top from pumping and windage.

Well the one I was looking at is this one > https://www.melling.com/11-1-19-new-...-oil-pump-web/

I was told it’s the only true HV pump as the normal 10355 is just the same as our factory oil pump. This shits all new to me. I got a ZL1 bc I heard they’re basically bulletproof and I didn’t think 700 was a lot for this car when I’ve seen 100k 900+ hp ones. I put all the best parts on this car. And a little sad to be honest. I don’t even beat on the car. When this all happened. I wasn’t even into boost. I just got on it slightly to pass a car. Shot oil out. Like the rear main seal blew out. Lost oil pressure. And oil temps went up to 240 or so. I got it home and this is what I found in the oil. So now I’m bummed.

[JB'sZL1]

Originally Posted by Astatenate

I got a ZL1 bc I heard they’re basically bulletproof...

You heard correctly. Everything you quoted was by CTSV owners...those guys are (were?) nuts. Known for pushing the envelope, and going over the edge regularly. Not just for hp envy, but learning what breaks after the fact, without taking the proper precautions. In sum, learning by the seat of their pants...like the 60's.

Is it not premature to blame the stock motor before knowing the cause? It could be contamination, oil delivery, tune, etc., etc., etc.

I know it blows, but it sounds like you saved the block, and can rebuild it as you wish over the next couple of months.

[Bigtime53]

If it blew out the rear seal what caused it to do that? Something in the boost must have went way to high and you didn't see the gauge? I am only asking here because I would like to know what exactly happened as I know you do to. I have not ever heard of this happening on these cars. I read you said you were not into it very much just passing a car but something damn sure caused it to blow out and the only thing I would think was to much boost. Please keep us in the loop and let us know what you find out.

[Astatenate]

Originally Posted by JB'sZL1

You heard correctly. Everything you quoted was by CTSV owners...those guys are (were?) nuts. Known for pushing the envelope, and going over the edge regularly. Not just for hp envy, but learning what breaks after the fact, without taking the proper precautions. In sum, learning by the seat of their pants...like the 60's.

Is it not premature to blame the stock motor before knowing the cause? It could be contamination, oil delivery, tune, etc., etc., etc.

I know it blows, but it sounds like you saved the block, and can rebuild it as you wish over the next couple of months.

Yeah, I mean I don’t think 700 is pushing the limits. And if so I guess I’ll really be asking for trouble once it’s back together and has a stage 3 cam added to the mix. But won’t know for sure til we get motor pulled (was going to happen this weekend until the freaking snow-pocalypse hit the south) lol

Originally Posted by Bigtime53

If it blew out the rear seal what caused it to do that? Something in the boost must have went way to high and you didn't see the gauge? I am only asking here because I would like to know what exactly happened as I know you do to. I have not ever heard of this happening on these cars. I read you said you were not into it very much just passing a car but something damn sure caused it to blow out and the only thing I would think was to much boost. Please keep us in the loop and let us know what you find out.

Yeah I got an AEM gauge that shows 3 parameters (boost, AFR, ethanol %) all 3 were just fine. My boost gauge never spiked over 15-16lbs which is where my peak boost always has been on this setup. My tuner and another local LSA owner mentioned I shoulda had a vent on my catch can as well as my crankcase. I don’t have either. I have a seal elite catch can and no breather on my oil cap. Which at my power level (I am just now finding out) I shoulda had..? Tuner and GPI said I could have aerated the oil by not having the crankcase vented and that coulda caused bearing failure. But who knows truly until we get it apart. But I will keep everyone posited.

[silversleeper]

Originally Posted by Bigtime53

If it blew out the rear seal what caused it to do that? Something in the boost must have went way to high and you didn't see the gauge? I am only asking here because I would like to know what exactly happened as I know you do to. I have not ever heard of this happening on these cars. I read you said you were not into it very much just passing a car but something damn sure caused it to blow out and the only thing I would think was to much boost. Please keep us in the loop and let us know what you find out.

Ah yeah, thanks for the idea. Now I have a theory. I put a metco valved breather on my valve cover to prevent this. It's a known "thing" to occur otherwise. I think I got it from Phastek, IIRC Ted Jannetty also sells them. It opens ONLY under pressure to let that out.

BTW for those that don't know, you DO want a valved breather not just a random sh1t chinese thing stuck on the catchcan if you have one (I don't have catchcan) that is open to the air all the time or your system sucks in air. Having a vacuum in the crankcase with a valved breather is better for several reasons.

The engines can, when boosted, get too much blowby the rings and the stock system can't keep up and blows out the rear main seal. Then you might pump out all your oil and spin the bearings and ruin the block. On teardown I don't think you can see any of that besides lots of shavings like already found. In other words not see a failed oil pump or any other "cause".


Edit: The block is likely already toast, so spinning it over for a compression test won't likely "ruin" it. I'd be curious if #8 cyl has lower compression, weak rings, at this hp level they are known to go and sets in motion what I described above...


Those could also be rod bearing failure shavings on the magnetic plug if I'm not mistaken. So block might be saved, still I am thinking what I said above.

[DrkPhx]

The LSA is a very stout factory engine... but it has it limits. It's hard to say what caused failure on yours until it's torn down and inspected, everything else is speculation. What rpm were you shifting at? How lean was the tune and how much total timing advance at WOT? How hard were you on it? What AFR at WOT and do you have a data log from when it happened? Was the oil level at full before the run? etc

Running full E85 on a regular basis will cause oil dilution over time reducing protection at WOT regardless of what oil you run. Have an oil analysis done on the oil. Everyone get enamored with a high volume oil pump but oil drain back at high rpm is more critical because all LS motors (from the original LS1 in 97 to the LSA now) suffer from this because of the inherit design of the block. There are ways to minimize it, but it's still there. Having a HV pump exasperates the issue because the pump pulls the oil faster and at a higher volume causing starvation, cavitation and/or aeration which leads to lack of proper lubrication. Spinning higher than the stock red line doesn't help either.

[JB'sZL1]

I'm going to key in another factor. There is an assumption here that there was a single catastrophic failure. It may not be.

You purchased a six year old vehicle with 39,000 miles on it a year ago. It may have been pushed hard it's whole life, and may have been running near dry half of it. You will probably never know. But this damage may have been started years ago with an over enthusiastic driver, that did not monitor his Z, let alone maintain it. So although it could be in your driving, your tune, your mods, it easily could have its inception from several years ago. Just sayin'.

[Astatenate]

Originally Posted by silversleeper

Ah yeah, thanks for the idea. Now I have a theory. I put a metco valved breather on my valve cover to prevent this. It's a known "thing" to occur otherwise. I think I got it from Phastek, IIRC Ted Jannetty also sells them. It opens ONLY under pressure to let that out.

BTW for those that don't know, you DO want a valved breather not just a random sh1t chinese thing stuck on the catchcan if you have one (I don't have catchcan) that is open to the air all the time or your system sucks in air. Having a vacuum in the crankcase with a valved breather is better for several reasons.

The engines can, when boosted, get too much blowby the rings and the stock system can't keep up and blows out the rear main seal. Then you might pump out all your oil and spin the bearings and ruin the block. On teardown I don't think you can see any of that besides lots of shavings like already found. In other words not see a failed oil pump or any other "cause".


Edit: The block is likely already toast, so spinning it over for a compression test won't likely "ruin" it. I'd be curious if #8 cyl has lower compression, weak rings, at this hp level they are known to go and sets in motion what I described above...


Those could also be rod bearing failure shavings on the magnetic plug if I'm not mistaken. So block might be saved, still I am thinking what I said above.

I sure hope I can salvage the block... but I know there’s a good chance I might be screwed. Guess we’ll know in the upcoming weeks. From what I saw most companies offering complete short blocks are around 6-7k ..? What’s a good, low mileage / used short block going for?

Originally Posted by DrkPhx

The LSA is a very stout factory engine... but it has it limits. It's hard to say what caused failure on yours until it's torn down and inspected, everything else is speculation. What rpm were you shifting at? How lean was the tune and how much total timing advance at WOT? How hard were you on it? What AFR at WOT and do you have a data log from when it happened? Was the oil level at full before the run? etc

Running full E85 on a regular basis will cause oil dilution over time reducing protection at WOT regardless of what oil you run. Have an oil analysis done on the oil. Everyone get enamored with a high volume oil pump but oil drain back at high rpm is more critical because all LS motors (from the original LS1 in 97 to the LSA now) suffer from this because of the inherit design of the block. There are ways to minimize it, but it's still there. Having a HV pump exasperates the issue because the pump pulls the oil faster and at a higher volume causing starvation, cavitation and/or aeration which leads to lack of proper lubrication. Spinning higher than the stock red line doesn't help either.

Yeah it runs on e85 100% of the time. Only driven on weekends. But oil had roughly 1000 miles on it. Give or take. To answer your above questions, it’s an auto car. Shift point is set at 7000. But I wasn’t fully in it. May of gotten above 6000 but unlikely. Tune wasn’t lean at all. Car runs pretty rich in upper RPM’s. 10.8 to 12.5 under WOT. How hard was I on it? About 70% throttle. no data logs when it happened. Like I said. Was just a normal drive on my way home. And oil level was def full. Had just checked it previous night.

So should I stick with a stock oil pump, if I’m not planning on upgrading oil pan?

Originally Posted by JB'sZL1

I'm going to key in another factor. There is an assumption here that there was a single catastrophic failure. It may not be.

You purchased a six year old vehicle with 39,000 miles on it a year ago. It may have been pushed hard it's whole life, and may have been running near dry half of it. You will probably never know. But this damage may have been started years ago with an over enthusiastic driver, that did not monitor his Z, let alone maintain it. So although it could be in your driving, your tune, your mods, it easily could have its inception from several years ago. Just sayin'.

Also likely. From everyone local. Both V and Z guys. They’re saying LSA common issue with the bearings. But idk. I have no experience with them. So just trusting local LSA owners and your guys opinions. Def a one owner car. Bone stock. Old man. Not sure his driving or service ya know. I just know since I’ve taken over the car. It’s gotten the best of everything and I’m a little sad lol

[diddies]

Originally Posted by Astatenate

Yeah, I mean I don’t think 700 is pushing the limits. And if so I guess I’ll really be asking for trouble once it’s back together and has a stage 3 cam added to the mix. But won’t know for sure til we get motor pulled (was going to happen this weekend until the freaking snow-pocalypse hit the south) lol




Yeah I got an AEM gauge that shows 3 parameters (boost, AFR, ethanol %) all 3 were just fine. My boost gauge never spiked over 15-16lbs which is where my peak boost always has been on this setup. My tuner and another local LSA owner mentioned I shoulda had a vent on my catch can as well as my crankcase. I don’t have either. I have a seal elite catch can and no breather on my oil cap. Which at my power level (I am just now finding out) I shoulda had..? Tuner and GPI said I could have aerated the oil by not having the crankcase vented and that coulda caused bearing failure. But who knows truly until we get it apart. But I will keep everyone posited.

I have pretty much the same power as you. I have 3 points of crankcase release points. I have the one that comes from the two valve covers, the oil cap breather and the elite engineering with 2 outlets. You may have had more than the stock one could handle.

[silversleeper]

Originally Posted by Astatenate

I sure hope I can salvage the block... but I know there’s a good chance I might be screwed. Guess we’ll know in the upcoming weeks. From what I saw most companies offering complete short blocks are around 6-7k ..? What’s a good, low mileage / used short block going for? ...

I take questions on the forum as open to anyone who might know the answer. So hopefully they will give you some ideas. As I don't know what's the best advice for you if you need a shortblock.


I no longer blindly trust all GM shortblocks or long blocks. Some have a good reputation and others are junk.
I might consider this
https://www.gmperformancemotor.com/parts/19417356.html
LSX376-B15 (6.2L) but it's a $9 grand long block



IDK if there are many good used LSA shortblocks around because they are either in the car running or thrashed so the owner gets a forged pistons shortblock to avoid future high hp issues.
IIRC a 416/418 or 427/429 cubic inch option wasn't much more expensive than stock displacement and would be my choice besides the longblock above, if I need to do this because I am in the same situation. I am not familiar enough with builder's quality reputation to give you the answer who to go with.

[JB'sZL1]

I'm going to add two more things I would not do to my Z (already touched upon): 7,000rpm shift point and 5w30. Unless you go with a 416, you may want to set the shift back, and go oem or 5w20. You're just risking things most of us don't. The fact that you weren't gunning it at time of failure is of no consequence. Revving it to 7k over the past year (or over the past how many number of months) was probably most certainly a contributing factor. Leave the high revs for Voodoo and Predator.

[Triple5even813]

Originally Posted by JB'sZL1

I'm going to add two more things I would not do to my Z (already touched upon): 7,000rpm shift point and 5w30. Unless you go with a 416, you may want to set the shift back, and go oem or 5w20. You're just risking things most of us don't. The fact that you weren't gunning it at time of failure is of no consequence. Revving it to 7k over the past year (or over the past how many number of months) was probably most certainly a contributing factor. Leave the high revs for Voodoo and Predator.

IDK about the 7k limiter thing... I have been thrashing my car at 750whp for 2-1/2 years, no lift shifting at 7k, and my oil pressure is holding steady at 30 psi hot with M1 5W30. Upgraded springs, trunion, retainers. Not overheating the oil. Not lugging the engine with heavy torque loads at low RPM, or getting greedy with timing at peak torque, and a great tune. I think these things have probably made a difference for me. I'm open to hearing your reasons why 7k is too much. I don't understand why a 416 would be any less susceptible to high RPM failures than stock displ.

[JB'sZL1]

Originally Posted by Triple5even813

I don't understand why a 416 would be any less susceptible to high RPM failures than stock displ.

My mistake: stuffing too much into one sentence. I did not mean to infer that a 416 can handle more rpm's...just more hp. If op is to replace the engine...I would most likely go with a 416. Nothing against the LSA...I love mine.

As far as higher rpm's: I've had engineering courses, and remain interested in it. It is a proven fact that higher rpm's will deteriorate the parts quicker than lower rpm's. I'd like to see how many Voodoos and Coyotes make it to 100k miles. So many have exploded or failed already. I doubt Ford has it right...maybe better...with the Predator.

Just sayin': I too was after high hp AND longevity. Hopefully I have it. But if I were to regularly push (7k rpm's and WOT in my quest to go faster) my Z, I would probably go for a 416 (more durable, more hp, but again not more rpm's)...or a COPO.

[Astatenate]

Originally Posted by JB'sZL1

My mistake: stuffing too much into one sentence. I did not mean to infer that a 416 can handle more rpm's...just more hp. If op is to replace the engine...I would most likely go with a 416. Nothing against the LSA...I love mine.

As far as higher rpm's: I've had engineering courses, and remain interested in it. It is a proven fact that higher rpm's will deteriorate the parts quicker than lower rpm's. I'd like to see how many Voodoos and Coyotes make it to 100k miles. So many have exploded or failed already. I doubt Ford has it right...maybe better...with the Predator.

Just sayin': I too was after high hp AND longevity. Hopefully I have it. But if I were to regularly push (7k rpm's and WOT in my quest to go faster) my Z, I would probably go for a 416 (more durable, more hp, but again not more rpm's)...or a COPO.

Hmm should I need a new block. I will for sure look into the 416. Will that short block work with my stock heads? I mean I know they’ll bolt right up. I mean. Will they compliment each other or will I be needing to port the heads if I do the 416?

Originally Posted by Triple5even813

IDK about the 7k limiter thing... I have been thrashing my car at 750whp for 2-1/2 years, no lift shifting at 7k, and my oil pressure is holding steady at 30 psi hot with M1 5W30. Upgraded springs, trunion, retainers. Not overheating the oil. Not lugging the engine with heavy torque loads at low RPM, or getting greedy with timing at peak torque, and a great tune. I think these things have probably made a difference for me. I'm open to hearing your reasons why 7k is too much. I don't understand why a 416 would be any less susceptible to high RPM failures than stock displ.

Hmm crazy. Maybe it’s something in my tune. Bc you’re at 50+ whp more than I am. Same oil. Etc. Never over heated the oil til that night it never saw over 200* maybe 210-220* for very small times.
I may have done high TQ at low RPMs bc I’ve gotten on it down low. Just enjoying my car. Didn’t know that was bad..? Care to explain why.

Originally Posted by JB'sZL1

I'm going to add two more things I would not do to my Z (already touched upon): 7,000rpm shift point and 5w30. Unless you go with a 416, you may want to set the shift back, and go oem or 5w20. You're just risking things most of us don't. The fact that you weren't gunning it at time of failure is of no consequence. Revving it to 7k over the past year (or over the past how many number of months) was probably most certainly a contributing factor. Leave the high revs for Voodoo and Predator.

What is factory shift point? I spoke with my tuner @ GPI about that. And he said he sets every bolt on e85 ZL1 at 7,000. Ported blower. Big cam 7400. I just felt like that was ridiculously high. I’d like to try out the VR1 20-50 and turn down my shift point. Back to 6500-6700 or so. I believe is the factory shift point. As well as let the crank case breath more.

Originally Posted by silversleeper

I take questions on the forum as open to anyone who might know the answer. So hopefully they will give you some ideas. As I don't know what's the best advice for you if you need a shortblock.


I no longer blindly trust all GM shortblocks or long blocks. Some have a good reputation and others are junk.
I might consider this
https://www.gmperformancemotor.com/parts/19417356.html
LSX376-B15 (6.2L) but it's a $9 grand long block



IDK if there are many good used LSA shortblocks around because they are either in the car running or thrashed so the owner gets a forged pistons shortblock to avoid future high hp issues.
IIRC a 416/418 or 427/429 cubic inch option wasn't much more expensive than stock displacement and would be my choice besides the longblock above, if I need to do this because I am in the same situation. I am not familiar enough with builder's quality reputation to give you the answer who to go with.

Great. Thank you for the input. I’ll check 416 out.