Homepage Garage Wiki Register Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
#Camaro6
Go Back   CAMARO6 > CAMARO6.com General Forums > 6th gen Camaro vs...


AWE Tuning


Post Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-17-2018, 01:37 PM   #1877
whiteboyblues2001

 
whiteboyblues2001's Avatar
 
Drives: 1SS, A8, MRC, NPP, Blade Spoiler
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MD
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by newmoon View Post
Haven't tracked it yet, not sure I will. The car has lower miles and is mint so not sure I want to take the chance. I just enjoy spirited driving on the street. The car is so much fun I can see it getting me into trouble quickly on a track by pushing it beyond my ability.

Yes you are right I never heard much about the Boss overheating on the track. The Boss did come with an upgraded radiator and oil cooler, revised oil pan baffling, and a finned differential cover. I guess these upgrades keep temps in check.
I understand your reasoning. But, if you ever change your mind, from what I have seen (in person, not on the internet), your car is quite the capable track car right out of the box. I was very impressed with the car's abilities on the track (and the driver's abilities as well). And that is not the only Boss 302 I have seen running on the track.
whiteboyblues2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2018, 02:21 PM   #1878
newmoon


 
newmoon's Avatar
 
Drives: 2019 GT350
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 3,232
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001 View Post
I understand your reasoning. But, if you ever change your mind, from what I have seen (in person, not on the internet), your car is quite the capable track car right out of the box. I was very impressed with the car's abilities on the track (and the driver's abilities as well). And that is not the only Boss 302 I have seen running on the track.
Thank you for the information, talking to the Boss community the stock P-Zeros are really holding the car back. It needs something like Cup 2s or NT01 to really let it loose. Maybe there will be a set of NT01s in my future.
__________________
2019 GT350 RR
2013 Boss Mustang
2012 SRT Challenger 392 auto 12:40s 112 stock
2012 Ford Mustang 5.0. Brembo, 3:73s
2010 SS, LS3, Cammed, LTs, 12:20s
2004 Redfire Cobra, Pullied & Tuned
1986 GT, Ed Curtis 347ci, 11:20s motor. 10:30s 100-hp shot
newmoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2018, 02:52 PM   #1879
Zeke.Malvo

 
Zeke.Malvo's Avatar
 
Drives: 1969 Mustang MaCh1
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: SJ
Posts: 835
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001 View Post
But there is one more factor to consider with regards to Ford's choice of tire. From what I understand, those tires need to be heated up before they get grip (like most track tires), BUT unlike other track tires, the performance is greatly compromised when they are NOT heated up.

So, in other words, you won't get your desired maximum grip on the street with these tires (which is your stated original objective). There are better choices for that. A guy like you (street only) would find more grip with a different tire than the Sport Cup 2's.

That's why this is so confusing (to some). If this car is designed for "never on the track", why a tire that only provides grip when fully heated up, and otherwise is not that grippy? To me, it's obvious. Ford wanted a lap time to compete with the 1LE, and these tires are what are needed to do that. A tire that is more grippy on the street may not be as good on the track as the SC2's, and they wouldn't get the lap time they were shooting for.
+1

A lot of people have a misconception of what the MSC2's offer. They must be fully warmed up to get the full benefit, otherwise the MPS4S actually offer more grip for most occasions (street). MSC2's are even too aggressive to use in autocross, where tire temps start off relatively cool.

I agree that the PP2 should not have been offered with MSC2's being that it's really more of a track tire than a street tire. It'll probably show a solid 1-1.5 second lap improvement over the MPS4S tho.


I will say if you buy any new car without added coolers with the intentions of tracking the car at all, and then expect it to perform, then you are an unimformed idiot. Plain and simple. I don't think it is Fords fault at as all for not offering them (ie '16 GT350 base/Tech Pack), that is irrelevant. If anything, I think that's a good thing for 99% of the buying public to help keep costs down.
__________________
1969 Pro-Touring MaCh 1 - CHP 427w 10.8 comp - 3140 lbs. - 460 rwhp / 490 rwtq
T56 Magnum || 14" 6 piston front / 13" 4 piston rear Wilwood brakes || Hydraulic clutch || 9" Detroit Locker || TCP Coilovers || Forgeline Wheels 18x10 275/35 front, 19x12 325/30 rear
Zeke.Malvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 07:42 AM   #1880
Balzdeep
 
Balzdeep's Avatar
 
Drives: Wicked Fast
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Midwest
Posts: 54
Adding the trans and diff coolers are only like $1200 in parts to add to any PP2 car. This is a model below the 65k GT350. Pretty simple upgrade for dedicated track junkies. .
Balzdeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 07:51 AM   #1881
Martinjlm
Retired from GM
 
Martinjlm's Avatar
 
Drives: 2017 Camaro Fifty SS Convertible
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Detroit
Posts: 5,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo View Post
+1

A lot of people have a misconception of what the MSC2's offer. They must be fully warmed up to get the full benefit, otherwise the MPS4S actually offer more grip for most occasions (street). MSC2's are even too aggressive to use in autocross, where tire temps start off relatively cool.

I agree that the PP2 should not have been offered with MSC2's being that it's really more of a track tire than a street tire. It'll probably show a solid 1-1.5 second lap improvement over the MPS4S tho.


I will say if you buy any new car without added coolers with the intentions of tracking the car at all, and then expect it to perform, then you are an unimformed idiot. Plain and simple. I don't think it is Fords fault at as all for not offering them (ie '16 GT350 base/Tech Pack), that is irrelevant. If anything, I think that's a good thing for 99% of the buying public to help keep costs down.
Then they should have made it a “check the box” option. Those who want a track car can either check the box and have it done at the factory or not check the box and do it themselves. As it sits, they are forcing the 99% to spend money on replacement tires. Whether that’s done as the vehicle leaves the lot or done soon after when the super grippy track tires wear under DD use.

I would have no issues with a PP2 with Super Sports and no added coolers. I would have no issues with PP2 with Cup 2s and added coolers. I think if you (as a manufacturer) are going to use one, but not the other, added coolers and option up to Cup 2 makes sense. Leaving off coolers because most people won’t track it anyway AND equipping it with track focused tires makes no sense. It’s like buying an engagement ring, renting the hall, and then saying “I’d rather Netflix and chill.”
__________________
2017 CAMARO FIFTY SS CONVERTIBLE
A8 | MRC | NPP | Nav | HUD | GM Performance CAI | Tony Mamo LT1 V2 Ported TB | Kooks 1-7/8” LT Headers | FlexFuel Tune | Thinkware Q800 Pro front and rear dash cam | Charcoal Tint for Taillights and 3rd Brakelight | Orange and Carbon Fiber Bowties | 1LE Wheels in Gunmetal Gray | Carbon Fiber Interior Overlays | Novistretch bra and mirror covers | Tow hitch for bicycle rack |


Martinjlm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 08:08 AM   #1882
ST1LE


 
ST1LE's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 BMW M3
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balzdeep View Post
Adding the trans and diff coolers are only like $1200 in parts to add to any PP2 car. This is a model below the 65k GT350. Pretty simple upgrade for dedicated track junkies. .
Yet, Ford wont warranty a car that is tracked. Any track junkie knows between the two that the 1LE is the right choice to make.
__________________
SOLD - 2013 1LE - Pat G Spec'd Cam, NPP with 1 7/8" Long Tube Headers with High Flow Cats, Intake w/scoop, Ported Throttle Body, and Apex 1.25" Lowering Springs.
J-Rod Built and Matt@FSP Tuned
ST1LE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 08:09 AM   #1883
ChevyRules

 
Drives: 2021 Tesla Model 3 LR
Join Date: May 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinjlm View Post
Then they should have made it a “check the box” option. Those who want a track car can either check the box and have it done at the factory or not check the box and do it themselves. As it sits, they are forcing the 99% to spend money on replacement tires. Whether that’s done as the vehicle leaves the lot or done soon after when the super grippy track tires wear under DD use.

I would have no issues with a PP2 with Super Sports and no added coolers. I would have no issues with PP2 with Cup 2s and added coolers. I think if you (as a manufacturer) are going to use one, but not the other, added coolers and option up to Cup 2 makes sense. Leaving off coolers because most people won’t track it anyway AND equipping it with track focused tires makes no sense. It’s like buying an engagement ring, renting the hall, and then saying “I’d rather Netflix and chill.”

Agreed the coolers should be at least an option from the factory. I have little sympathy for those that bought the base '16 GT350 and then complained about it overheating on the track. If they were going to track it, why didn't they buy the package that came with the coolers? Probably because they couldn't afford it, but that is still not a reason to get all pissy over Ford over it. Obviously the base GT350 was there for people who were just going to keep the GT350 on the streets. I could see them being a bit pissy in how they packaged the coolers with other crap that made the price sky rocket, but not for offering the GT350 without coolers.



I don't believe people should have to go after market to finish a car. It should come from the factory finished. Either through optional packages or standard. One thing if an owner can only afford the car without the coolers at first and will add them later. It's another when the OEM puts the task of finishing the car to all owners. All intents and purposes, the PP2 is a track capable vehicle and a worthy 1LE competitor. It's just crippled by the fact it can't sustain it. Sort of like the last GT500 where its brakes would overheat after 1-2 laps.
ChevyRules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 08:11 AM   #1884
ST1LE


 
ST1LE's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 BMW M3
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinjlm View Post
Then they should have made it a “check the box” option. Those who want a track car can either check the box and have it done at the factory or not check the box and do it themselves. As it sits, they are forcing the 99% to spend money on replacement tires. Whether that’s done as the vehicle leaves the lot or done soon after when the super grippy track tires wear under DD use.

I would have no issues with a PP2 with Super Sports and no added coolers. I would have no issues with PP2 with Cup 2s and added coolers. I think if you (as a manufacturer) are going to use one, but not the other, added coolers and option up to Cup 2 makes sense. Leaving off coolers because most people won’t track it anyway AND equipping it with track focused tires makes no sense. It’s like buying an engagement ring, renting the hall, and then saying “I’d rather Netflix and chill.”
LOL, that analogy works as well here as it did on M6G...yet I doubt it was received well there. That said, I am actually surprised that the M6G guys are for the most part in agreement with the nonsensical packaging of this car.

I think this Gen is starting to wear on all but the most hardcore blue oval guys.
__________________
SOLD - 2013 1LE - Pat G Spec'd Cam, NPP with 1 7/8" Long Tube Headers with High Flow Cats, Intake w/scoop, Ported Throttle Body, and Apex 1.25" Lowering Springs.
J-Rod Built and Matt@FSP Tuned
ST1LE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 08:15 AM   #1885
ST1LE


 
ST1LE's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 BMW M3
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevyRules View Post
Agreed the coolers should be at least an option from the factory. I have little sympathy for those that bought the base '16 GT350 and then complained about it overheating on the track. If they were going to track it, why didn't they buy the package that came with the coolers? Probably because they couldn't afford it, but that is still not a reason to get all pissy over Ford over it. Obviously the base GT350 was there for people who were just going to keep the GT350 on the streets. I could see them being a bit pissy in how they packaged the coolers with other crap that made the price sky rocket, but not for offering the GT350 without coolers.



I don't believe people should have to go after market to finish a car. It should come from the factory finished. Either through optional packages or standard. One thing if an owner can only afford the car without the coolers at first and will add them later. It's another when the OEM puts the task of finishing the car to all owners. All intents and purposes, the PP2 is a track capable vehicle and a worthy 1LE competitor. It's just crippled by the fact it can't sustain it. Sort of like the last GT500 where its brakes would overheat after 1-2 laps.
I agree with you there. If you are spending 10's of thousands on something, do your research and know what you are buying. I wasn't even in the market for a GT350, and I knew the base and tech pack cars came sans coolers.

On your second point, this seems to be Ford's MO this generation. I can see why from a certain standpoint, the Mustang has always been a car that owners HEAVILY modify and love to make their own, even more so than the the Camaro and Challenger. Keeping costs low and allowing some cushion for the customer to customize makes complete sense to a point, but when the car is essentially as you said 'unfinished' from the factory then they have taken it a bit far. The Mustang is no longer cheap, so why someone would buy these unfinished auto's is beyond me. Maybe they dont know what they are buying(or not buying really)?
__________________
SOLD - 2013 1LE - Pat G Spec'd Cam, NPP with 1 7/8" Long Tube Headers with High Flow Cats, Intake w/scoop, Ported Throttle Body, and Apex 1.25" Lowering Springs.
J-Rod Built and Matt@FSP Tuned
ST1LE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 09:02 AM   #1886
torqueaddict

 
Drives: Tesla M3 LR-AWD [Former 1SS owner]
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Miami
Posts: 950
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevyRules View Post
Agreed the coolers should be at least an option from the factory. I have little sympathy for those that bought the base '16 GT350 and then complained about it overheating on the track. If they were going to track it, why didn't they buy the package that came with the coolers? Probably because they couldn't afford it, but that is still not a reason to get all pissy over Ford over it. Obviously the base GT350 was there for people who were just going to keep the GT350 on the streets. I could see them being a bit pissy in how they packaged the coolers with other crap that made the price sky rocket, but not for offering the GT350 without coolers.



I don't believe people should have to go after market to finish a car. It should come from the factory finished. Either through optional packages or standard. One thing if an owner can only afford the car without the coolers at first and will add them later. It's another when the OEM puts the task of finishing the car to all owners. All intents and purposes, the PP2 is a track capable vehicle and a worthy 1LE competitor. It's just crippled by the fact it can't sustain it. Sort of like the last GT500 where its brakes would overheat after 1-2 laps.
Totally agree!

Looking at the way Ford packaged their options, the bean counter influence isn't hard to spot. Ok, so the manufacturers are in it for a profit, that's understood, but it seems Ford took it to another level in gouging their fan base. I can't blame them in some ways, since their base seem to be OK forking over the cash regardless.

But if you're going to market a car as track capable (or even imply it is), whether it be a GT 350, PP2 or whatever, at least include the minimum hardware necessary like GM did with the SS. If not, then clearly state the additional requirements. It is misleading and purposefully so IMO. Ford has to take some crap for that.

At the same time, we both agree that a lot of the blame has to go to the individuals who bought without doing the necessary research.

GM can be criticized for all sorts of things, but what you get with a Camaro SS (all trims) cannot be touched by any GT so far in terms of value for money. And that fact is becoming more and more apparent every day as you read the forums.
torqueaddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 09:28 AM   #1887
FastCarFanBoy
Banned
 
Drives: 2013 GB GT
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Florida
Posts: 954
Any car leaving the factory with SC2 should be capable of sustained track use. Hopefully there is a backlash shit storm for this. Ford has it coming this time... more so then with the base/tech 350’s
FastCarFanBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 09:50 AM   #1888
shaffe


 
Drives: 21 Bronco
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Carol Stream
Posts: 6,023
Quote:
Originally Posted by ST1LE View Post
LOL, that analogy works as well here as it did on M6G...yet I doubt it was received well there. That said, I am actually surprised that the M6G guys are for the most part in agreement with the nonsensical packaging of this car.

I think this Gen is starting to wear on all but the most hardcore blue oval guys.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy View Post
Any car leaving the factory with SC2 should be capable of sustained track use. Hopefully there is a backlash shit storm for this. Ford has it coming this time... more so then with the base/tech 350’s
I glanced at the other site. Didn't see a ton of people depending Ford so that is a step in the right direction. There are a few who said never was intended as a track pack, some who don't care because they won't track it and a good chunk saying they should have just added the coolers.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT View Post
Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
shaffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 10:05 AM   #1889
whiteboyblues2001

 
whiteboyblues2001's Avatar
 
Drives: 1SS, A8, MRC, NPP, Blade Spoiler
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MD
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy View Post
Any car leaving the factory with SC2 should be capable of sustained track use. Hopefully there is a backlash shit storm for this. Ford has it coming this time... more so then with the base/tech 350’s
The problem is, I don't think they will. The Ford fans are so fanatical, they will side with Ford even if Henry Ford slept with their wives and gave them herpes.

That's why we see the same mistakes by Ford. Chevy didn't add enough cooling capacity when they designed the C7 Corvette. They got embarrassed when magazines were trying to test the Z06, and it went into limp mode. BUT, they learned their lesson, that's why the Camaro has coolers up the ying yang. And it works great. On track, off track, anywhere.

But Ford got embarrassed by the whole GT350 Base/Tech Pack/Track Pack overheating issue, and all the Ford guys attacked the buyers. Even Zeke is here on this board preemptively saying that anyone who buys a PP2 and takes it to the track is a dummy. He's already blaming folks who haven't even bought the car yet, let alone complained. Wow.

But this time that argument is even more pathetic. Because, at least with the GT350 the jerks could argue "hey, there was a track pack with the coolers you know. Why didn't you get that?" But now they don't even have that argument with the GT, because coolers aren't even an option on this car. A car they spent tuning the MRC and aerodynamics at VIR with a race car driver giving feedback at how it does ON A TRACK AT 140 MPH. Why even waste the effort and money on that? Why adjust the aerodynamics for 140 MPH turns on a track? Why put tires on it that are only good on the track? Why not offer PP2 with the auto, or in a convertible?

Because their goal was to beat the 1LE ON A TRACK, and they hoped that it wouldn't overheat, but it did. Now they are backpedaling and saying, "well, it wasn't meant for the track".
whiteboyblues2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 10:18 AM   #1890
kttxz06

 
kttxz06's Avatar
 
Drives: '18 Zl1. '18 GT350.
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Katy
Posts: 2,104
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001 View Post
The problem is, I don't think they will. The Ford fans are so fanatical, they will side with Ford even if Henry Ford slept with their wives and gave them herpes.

That's why we see the same mistakes by Ford. Chevy didn't add enough cooling capacity when they designed the C7 Corvette. They got embarrassed when magazines were trying to test the Z06, and it went into limp mode. BUT, they learned their lesson, that's why the Camaro has coolers up the ying yang. And it works great. On track, off track, anywhere.

But Ford got embarrassed by the whole GT350 Base/Tech Pack/Track Pack overheating issue, and all the Ford guys attacked the buyers. Even Zeke is here on this board preemptively saying that anyone who buys a PP2 and takes it to the track is a dummy. He's already blaming folks who haven't even bought the car yet, let alone complained. Wow.

But this time that argument is even more pathetic. Because, at least with the GT350 the jerks could argue "hey, there was a track pack with the coolers you know. Why didn't you get that?" But now they don't even have that argument with the GT, because coolers aren't even an option on this car. A car they spent tuning the MRC and aerodynamics at VIR with a race car driver giving feedback at how it does ON A TRACK AT 140 MPH. Why even waste the effort and money on that? Why adjust the aerodynamics for 140 MPH turns on a track? Why put tires on it that are only good on the track? Why not offer PP2 with the auto, or in a convertible?

Because their goal was to beat the 1LE ON A TRACK, and they hoped that it wouldn't overheat, but it did. Now they are backpedaling and saying, "well, it wasn't meant for the track".

haha, well said. Ford guys are something else. It's like some addiction. Once they own 1 Ford, it's almost impossible to pry that Blue Oval from their dead hands.



Even with facts right in front of them. Ford is losing the battle. Chevy and Dodge are putting out constantly better performers. On track and at the drag strip.



They have a loooooooooooooooooong way to go before they make a car to wipe the Zl1 1LE off it's block. Even the Zl1 for that matter. They have nothing in the tank for Dodge right now either. They are banking on the 500 being their Halo Mustang and at this point, who knows how it's going to perform.
__________________
There's only 2 people I trust. 1 of them is me, the other's not you. 2018 Zl1. 1199 RWHP/931 TQ.
kttxz06 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Post Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.