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[Camaro Dude]

Originally Posted by InFiD3ViL

Curious if we are going to start seeing an influx of 1.85 rocker upgrades now.

Well, according to PatrickG on LS1TECH,

"if you're looking to gain 13rwhp without swapping cams, the Yella Terra 1.85 ratio rockers are an excellent way to boost the power of your L92/L76/L99/LS3 engine without opening up the motor."

[WHAMMO]

Originally Posted by Camaro Dude

The problem here is, that E85 conversion on a naturally aspirated application, has pretty much always been, a roll eyes affair in the automotive mod world thus far.

I mean, for the most part, the E85 NA results in other threads, leave much to be desired???

It's safe to say, that "Cam vs E85", the cam alone offers the LS3 more power, than an E85 conversion alone would. Right? There are others who have done E85 and cam before TOGETHER....I'm 100% sure of that. What were their results in the 1/4 mile and trap speed?

You follow what I'm saying?

Surely, the combination of his E85, and a couple of other mods, that no one else has done, would be the defining reason to these results.


Actually, I did mention in my question to you, top 3 mods, not 1 alone.

No way in hell it was 1 mod alone that made the difference here, as was my point to WHAMMO in regards to E85.

E85 ? I was under the impression its the real deal lately, I dont know. I just googled and a 2011 corvetteforum thread popped up with 44rwhp& 42rwtq over a 93 mild tune. I think its the secret sauce for stellar results.

[navyblueSS]

Very impressive runs and results!

[Redbird555]

Originally Posted by WHAMMO

E85 ? I was under the impression its the real deal lately, I dont know. I just googled and a 2011 corvetteforum thread popped up with 44rwhp& 42rwtq over a 93 mild tune. I think its the secret sauce for stellar results.

Like Phil said there is no magic bullet, we all converse regularly about our cars and the mods we're doing and we actually all get similar results with similar mods. So Phil's car is definitely no unicorn. My Z06 made 540whp on a local dyno which makes it the highest bolt on z06 that I know of that dyno has always proven very accurate with track times on my other cars as well. I have many of the same mods as phil does well see soon how it goes. I'm shooting for a trap speed over 130

It's not just one mod, it's all the little ones that add up. Phil was trapping 118 before the clutch so that's def not the oddball mod. EWP and E85 are worth 15-20 whp together, rockers another 10 or so etc it all adds up.

E85 according to most is a waste of time. And if you look at a dyno on an NA ls it might look like that. Common gains are 6-15whp up top, myself and phil only gained about 7whp up top. But if you look at midrange it's much different, the difference on my car from 4000-5200 was 20/20 at the tires, that's huge.

Also if you look at these forums people bad mouth light clutches. I can only think that people who do this don't have a working understanding of inertia. For some reason they think hanging a 60lb weight off the crank is helping the car accelerate. The only place that heavy clutch is helping you is off the line. A heavy clutch won't cause a loss of rpm and a bog because of its stored inertia however phil here has no problem launching his. So myth busted.

Clutch weight isn't just about taking 30lb of static weight out of the car though. Picture you have a 3 bladed fan attached to the end of a stick, it's 12" in diameter and weighs 30lb, now you spin it up to speed, then slow it down and speed it back up again. That's exactly what your engine sees when you drive it, it has to spin a heavy mass up then you shift, it slows down and now has to spin it back up again. Now repeat the same experiment and decrease diameter to 8" and cut the weight down to 15lb. Which fan blade takes more energy to spin?

Bottom line is I think people need to get out of the "good enough" mentality.

Stock unmodded ls3 intake is "good enough"
Small headers are "good enough"
EWP doesn't really gain anything
E85 isn't worth it
Rockers don't really gain anything
Light clutches will slow you down

Obviously all of those thoughts are wrong bc the guy who did all of them now has the fastest bolt on car full weight in the country and he's still got more mods to do.

[Redbird555]

Originally Posted by Camaro Dude

The problem here is, that E85 conversion on a naturally aspirated application, has pretty much always been, a roll eyes affair in the automotive mod world thus far.

I mean, for the most part, the E85 NA results in other threads, leave much to be desired???

It's safe to say, that "Cam vs E85", the cam alone offers the LS3 more power, than an E85 conversion alone would. Right? There are others who have done E85 and cam before TOGETHER....I'm 100% sure of that. What were their results in the 1/4 mile and trap speed?

You follow what I'm saying?

Surely, the combination of his E85, and a couple of other mods, that no one else has done, would be the defining reason to these results.


Actually, I did mention in my question to you, top 3 mods, not 1 alone.

No way in hell it was 1 mod alone that made the difference here, as was my point to WHAMMO in regards to E85.

I look at this from a scientific perspective. The same experiment, the same list of instruments', the same procedure has been performed hundreds of times before. You took the same experiment, but included different instruments, your conclusions came out different, and of course for the better.


I could see the clutch helping with ET, but not your 120+ trap speed. Right?


Human error definitely plays a role in the conclusion of an experiment. However, most bolt-ons, like cold air intake, headers, intake manifold, the standard issue stuff, it's only a question of bolting it nice and snug. There aren't many variations to that theme, that can skew the results.

So I think it's the attention detail to your tuning capabilities(or your tuner's), of course the E85 given the former, the intake manifold (that I THINK you ported your self??), and the smart use of your thinking on pulley re-arrangement that you previously mentioned.

I meant to quote this in my previous reply but I'd like to touch on a couple points here as well. E85 has not caught on in the GM world. Howevever go look over at the coyote forums, all of those guys run e85. The gains there are certainly not really different than what we see on ls motors. As much as I hate to say it those guys mod more "Efficiently" than ls guys do a lot of the time. See back to my previous reply about what e85 did for me

As fast than he clutch goes again refer back to my reply. A light clutch will help both et and trap speed by freeing up power that was previously lost to parasitic drag.

I think your thinking may be a tad skewed in one area. Sure there are lots of the same varants of the same parts but I think there is something to be said about using quality parts as well. Phil didn't just choose any porting route for his intake, he chose to do a light port and the rod mod which is the only ported manifold to have actual track results backing it's validity. He also chose a decent size header and a proven header brand. Small headers do not perform as well as larger ones plain and simple, I have also noticed that certain brandalike Arh seem to run just a little bit better than other ones. It's not always seen on a dyno but in real life it seems to play out that way. Like you said lots of people have the same mods, but then again do they really?

As far as the tuning thing goes, I made 450whp with my old ls3 and used a different tuner than Phil here, I also didn't have rockers or a ported intake when I did that so I still had more to go as well. Phil took his car to a tuner to get his AF in line but before and after that, most of the tuning was done remotely with a few of us collaborating through messaging. His tune isn't aggressive and it isn't out of the norm. However the e38 pcm Likes to pull timing for stupid amounts of things. Through process of elimination and many days of tuning we found many tables that pulled timing on the street that tuner's never adress fully and took them out. The difference in that alone was a large difference

[Camaro Dude]

Originally Posted by Redbird555

...I think your thinking may be a tad skewed in one area. Sure there are lots of the same varants of the same parts but I think there is something to be said about using quality parts as well. Phil didn't just choose any porting route for his intake, he chose to do a light port and the rod mod which is the only ported manifold to have actual track results backing it's validity. He also chose a decent size header and a proven header brand. Small headers do not perform as well as larger ones plain and simple, I have also noticed that certain brandalike Arh seem to run just a little bit better than other ones. It's not always seen on a dyno but in real life it seems to play out that way. Like you said lots of people have the same mods, but then again do they really?

Everything I didn't quote from you, i agree with, and fwiw, my statements/questions are meant to keep it aliiive

In regards to the intake, I did mention and asked in my last paragraph, if he ported it himself. So that confirms that!

For SURE, the TLC he gave that intake manifold helped. BUT, Phil(if I may use his name), did mention somewhere that he wishes to use a FAST intake in the future. Many (enough) as you know, are using it, with posted results, so it will be interesting to see, if there will be any gains over his "lightly ported with rod mod" stock intake ; ).

You then mentioned that he chose a decent sized header, and made an obvious point about small headers vs larger diameter ones. True as that is, no arguement there, question is, what "decent size" header did he choose? If my memory serves right, it was your typical (the most common size on this forum) 1 7/8 size, right? If so, then that leaves us ONLY with the ARH arguement of superiority. Did that ARH brand header, but albeit with a common 1 7/8 size, truly add one or two points on trap speed and/or ET over an other "stepped header" design that cost less? Perhaps, but I won't go there (yet) .

Good post though, this is engaging almost exciting lol

[Camaro Dude]

Originally Posted by Redbird555

....Bottom line is I think people need to get out of the "good enough" mentality.

Stock unmodded ls3 intake is "good enough"
Small headers are "good enough"
EWP doesn't really gain anything
E85 isn't worth it
Rockers don't really gain anything
Light clutches will slow you down

Very good perspective and points.

However, 1.85 rockers, are really meant to increase lift only, without having to open it up, and add a cam right? I mean...an actual cam with even equal or more lift, with more duration, etc, would of netted more power right? Point is, nothing special about a cam for the sake of comparisons with others setups. Surely, his 1.85 rockers with stock cam, did NOT offer more power than an upgraded custom cam?

"Small headers"? Are you referring to 1 3/4?? If so, I do believe that 1 7/8 is the most common size used here. Unless of course, he is running 2in, which is not as common as the 1 7/8 fitment.

You are bringing up good points on the E85 and lighter clutch though, and stock intake manifold. It's definately worth the reassessment!

[lazerlemonta]

I still have the 2.5" Dual Mode Exhaust as well........... I really just like the way it sounds. Is it holding me back a little???? Maybe one day if I feel like taking all the weight off I can, I will drop the mufflers and see.

[Camaro Dude]

Originally Posted by lazerlemonta

I still have the 2.5" Dual Mode Exhaust as well........... I really just like the way it sounds. Is it holding me back a little???? Maybe one day if I feel like taking all the weight off I can, I will drop the mufflers and see.

Time for a new experiment! Your da man!

BTW, are you running offroad pipes or hi-flow cats?

[HioSSilver]

Biggest thing holding the mph back a little is gear i think. It's not in 4th long enough. Skinnies would help of course to. A regular ss tr6060 would likely help a little to. I could see the combo of tjose 3 picking up about 3mph give or take.

To dive into it farther lazerlemon said removing the front lip gains a little.....removing the rear wing could drive mph up if doin that stuff is your thang.

Sometimes stuff is what it is and he has a good car there. But for someone wanting to make a bolt on 5gen go faster than 11.56@120.4 it's in the cards. This is as near a full weight car as it gets. It lost a little with mods but no real intentional weight loss. You just have to do the stuff that does nothing

[big hammer]

Originally Posted by Camaro Dude

Very good perspective and points.

However, 1.85 rockers, are really meant to increase lift only, without having to open it up, and add a cam right? I mean...an actual cam with even equal or more lift, with more duration, etc, would of netted more power right? Point is, nothing special about a cam for the sake of comparisons with others setups. Surely, his 1.85 rockers with stock cam, did NOT offer more power than an upgraded custom cam?

"Small headers"? Are you referring to 1 3/4?? If so, I do believe that 1 7/8 is the most common size used here. Unless of course, he is running 2in, which is not as common as the 1 7/8 fitment.

You are bringing up good points on the E85 and lighter clutch though, and stock intake manifold. It's definately worth the reassessment!

Rockers don't add anywhere near what a cam will. They add some lift but don't really affect duration and overlap where the real power is made.but they're a really easy mod that odd a few hp and you can do them in an hour or so

[lazerlemonta]

Originally Posted by Camaro Dude

Everything I didn't quote from you, i agree with, and fwiw, my statements/questions are meant to keep it aliiive

In regards to the intake, I did mention and asked in my last paragraph, if he ported it himself. So that confirms that!

For SURE, the TLC he gave that intake manifold helped. BUT, Phil(if I may use his name), did mention somewhere that he wishes to use a FAST intake in the future. Many (enough) as you know, are using it, with posted results, so it will be interesting to see, if there will be any gains over his "lightly ported with rod mod" stock intake ; ).

You then mentioned that he chose a decent sized header, and made an obvious point about small headers vs larger diameter ones. True as that is, no arguement there, question is, what "decent size" header did he choose? If my memory serves right, it was your typical (the most common size on this forum) 1 7/8 size, right? If so, then that leaves us ONLY with the ARH arguement of superiority. Did that ARH brand header, but albeit with a common 1 7/8 size, truly add one or two points on trap speed and/or ET over an other "stepped header" design that cost less? Perhaps, but I won't go there (yet) .

Good post though, this is engaging almost exciting lol

Originally Posted by Camaro Dude

Time for a new experiment! Your da man!

BTW, are you running offroad pipes or hi-flow cats?

Off Road

[HioSSilver]

Well....they're actually gutted cats on it. Probably hurting it a little vs a actual offroad straight pipe.

[Redbird555]

Originally Posted by Camaro Dude

Very good perspective and points.

However, 1.85 rockers, are really meant to increase lift only, without having to open it up, and add a cam right? I mean...an actual cam with even equal or more lift, with more duration, etc, would of netted more power right? Point is, nothing special about a cam for the sake of comparisons with others setups. Surely, his 1.85 rockers with stock cam, did NOT offer more power than an upgraded custom cam?

"Small headers"? Are you referring to 1 3/4?? If so, I do believe that 1 7/8 is the most common size used here. Unless of course, he is running 2in, which is not as common as the 1 7/8 fitment.

You are bringing up good points on the E85 and lighter clutch though, and stock intake manifold. It's definately worth the reassessment!

My statement about header size is more geared towards the people in general who use 1.75" tubes and say that's good enough. The truth is you're modding your car to make it faster, why you would spend the same money and get something hat doesn't offer the same performance. There's always the other crowd too that still think larger headers lose performance which is a completely different backwards conversation lol

And yes you're right on the rockers, a cam surely adds more power but then again youll have a lot more modded engine than just a rocker swap that can be done in a couple hours on a Saturday. Bolt on cars running like Phil's tend to get a lot more people riled up than if it was just cammed. Rockers on a g8 are worth about 13whp in tests in an ls3 which has a larger cam to start with with much more lift the gains will be less.

Regarding the intake, I don't think on Phil's car a FAST is going to gain a whole lot with the long runner version. With the mid length I think the swap would be absolutely worth it, he'd give up a little mid range but get a good bump up top

As far as brand goes, I'm not saying ARH is superior as I don't have evidence to support that however many of the record cars and even OEM companies who sponsor things like the Cobra jet cars and Copo cars all use ARH