How buying an $80,000 Telsa costs the same as a $50,000 Camaro

[Cheveey57]

Originally Posted by JoansDriver

The environmental cost for the materials is quite high. Large portions of rainforest are destroyed all the time in order to provide the material that makes up lithium ion batteries.

I love this, here I am thinking the "tree Huggers" will love these, when in fact if they do it' ll actually be hurting their plight.

[Steve Dallas]

I've been considering the Tesla S for a while. Not a lot of quick-charging stations up here in the Pacific NW though yet.

More interested in AWD for my daily driver though.

[Angrybird 12]

The USA could completely outlaw any vehicle that is not Zero emmissions tomorrow and it would not stop climate change at all. It's a world wide issue and one country will not solve it.

Anyway I think it's more of a natural occurrence anyway since the world has cycled through several climate changes since the earth was formed millions of years ago, If you believe the scientists on that too..

[The Stig]

Originally Posted by jd10013

people also tend to ignore the plethora of problems the Tesla has had, the two biggest being range and cold weather effects on the battery. when The NY times took one out they couldn't even finish the test drive because the cold weather killed the battery too fast. not to mention if that battery hits 0% then it will "brick" as they call it and need a 40k replacement.

anyone who thinks they're that great, go buy one. and after you do that, go look at who owns and runs that company. you'll then understand how they've gained access to so much taxpayer money.

I know exactly what article you're talking about.

Did you read Tesla's response? Where they posted all of the data that the car gathers while driving? They proved the NY Times author lied in the article, Tesla finished them off by filing a lawsuit against the NY Times.

Not saying Tesla's are perfect - but just pointing out the inaccuracies of the NY Times article.

[DGthe3]

If it makes sense for you, go ahead. Personally, I don't see myself buying an EV until there is some major breakthrough in battery technology that offers a massive gain in either capacity/$ or recharge time. But if you think they're the car for you, by all means buy one for your next car. Technology needs early adopters so that the masses can eventually benefit down the road

Originally Posted by jd10013

people also tend to ignore the plethora of problems the Tesla has had, the two biggest being range and cold weather effects on the battery. when The NY times took one out they couldn't even finish the test drive because the cold weather killed the battery too fast. not to mention if that battery hits 0% then it will "brick" as they call it and need a 40k replacement.

anyone who thinks they're that great, go buy one. and after you do that, go look at who owns and runs that company. you'll then understand how they've gained access to so much taxpayer money.

Is that the widely discredited article that nobody has been able to replicate, where the vehicle data apparently disagrees with the writers claims? From about a month ago? Or is there some other one that I missed?

Also, the 'bricking' problem -which is a real issue; isn't as big as it may first appear. You have to neglect the car for months on end in order to actually 'brick' the car to the point that it requires a new battery. If the battery goes dead while you are driving, it can be recharged and not need any replacement. But when it goes super-ultra-mega dead because you parked it for 4 months when it already had a nearly depleted battery, yeah you will need a new one. And I don't believe its covered under warranty because the manual tells you not to do such a thing, and explains what might happen if you do. Keeping the battery charged is just part of the regular maintenance of your car, just like changing the oil for a normal car is. If you neglect it, don't expect the OEM to reimburse you for your foolishness.


For the record, I'm not a fan of EV's -I think they are over priced and under-deliver on all their promises. I just don't like seeing bad journalism being touted as fact. The guy was trying to tell a story, and the concerns he brought up were very real and I myself am weary of them.

Originally Posted by Firefighter

Go see the smoke stacks at that coal power plant that supplies your house... then look at what comes out of your tail pipe. Just saying.

He is from Quebec, only around 1% of the electricity in the province comes from coal, and about double that from other fossil fuels. The extreme majority (90+) comes from hydro-electric and around 3% is from nuclear. The remainder is made up with other renewables (~1%)

That argument might hold some water in places like West Virginia that are massively dependant on coal for their electricity, but not in Quebec where the OP is from.

[mikeyg36]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

If it makes sense for you, go ahead. Personally, I don't see myself buying an EV until there is some major breakthrough in battery technology that offers a massive gain in either capacity/$ or recharge time. But if you think they're the car for you, by all means buy one for your next car. Technology needs early adopters so that the masses can eventually benefit down the road
Is that the widely discredited article that nobody has been able to replicate, where the vehicle data apparently disagrees with the writers claims? From about a month ago? Or is there some other one that I missed?

Also, the 'bricking' problem -which is a real issue; isn't as big as it may first appear. You have to neglect the car for months on end in order to actually 'brick' the car to the point that it requires a new battery. If the battery goes dead while you are driving, it can be recharged and not need any replacement. But when it goes super-ultra-mega dead because you parked it for 4 months when it already had a nearly depleted battery, yeah you will need a new one. And I don't believe its covered under warranty because the manual tells you not to do such a thing, and explains what might happen if you do. Keeping the battery charged is just part of the regular maintenance of your car, just like changing the oil for a normal car is. If you neglect it, don't expect the OEM to reimburse you for your foolishness.


For the record, I'm not a fan of EV's -I think they are over priced and under-deliver on all their promises. I just don't like seeing bad journalism being touted as fact. The guy was trying to tell a story, and the concerns he brought up were very real and I myself am weary of them.

He is from Quebec, only around 1% of the electricity in the province comes from coal, and about double that from other fossil fuels. The extreme majority (90+) comes from hydro-electric and around 3% is from nuclear. The remainder is made up with other renewables (~1%)

That argument might hold some water in places like West Virginia that are massively dependant on coal for their electricity, but not in Quebec where the OP is from.

[MikeSVX]

Not trying to bash, but what is the life span of the batteries and how much to replace? Not to mention Tesla has always been bordering on the edge of bankruptcy.

[The Stig]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

If it makes sense for you, go ahead. Personally, I don't see myself buying an EV until there is some major breakthrough in battery technology that offers a massive gain in either capacity/$ or recharge time. But if you think they're the car for you, by all means buy one for your next car. Technology needs early adopters so that the masses can eventually benefit down the road
Is that the widely discredited article that nobody has been able to replicate, where the vehicle data apparently disagrees with the writers claims? From about a month ago? Or is there some other one that I missed?

Also, the 'bricking' problem -which is a real issue; isn't as big as it may first appear. You have to neglect the car for months on end in order to actually 'brick' the car to the point that it requires a new battery. If the battery goes dead while you are driving, it can be recharged and not need any replacement. But when it goes super-ultra-mega dead because you parked it for 4 months when it already had a nearly depleted battery, yeah you will need a new one. And I don't believe its covered under warranty because the manual tells you not to do such a thing, and explains what might happen if you do. Keeping the battery charged is just part of the regular maintenance of your car, just like changing the oil for a normal car is. If you neglect it, don't expect the OEM to reimburse you for your foolishness.


For the record, I'm not a fan of EV's -I think they are over priced and under-deliver on all their promises. I just don't like seeing bad journalism being touted as fact. The guy was trying to tell a story, and the concerns he brought up were very real and I myself am weary of them.

He is from Quebec, only around 1% of the electricity in the province comes from coal, and about double that from other fossil fuels. The extreme majority (90+) comes from hydro-electric and around 3% is from nuclear. The remainder is made up with other renewables (~1%)

That argument might hold some water in places like West Virginia that are massively dependant on coal for their electricity, but not in Quebec where the OP is from.

Yep - he was referencing the article you're thinking of.

[The Stig]

Originally Posted by MikeSVX

Not trying to bash, but what is the life span of the batteries and how much to replace? Not to mention Tesla has always been bordering on the edge of bankruptcy.

Battery life is quoted to be about 7 years, and on a good day they go for about $12,000.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by MikeSVX

Not trying to bash, but what is the life span of the batteries and how much to replace? Not to mention Tesla has always been bordering on the edge of bankruptcy.

Originally Posted by The Stig

Battery life is quoted to be about 7 years, and on a good day they go for about $12,000.

Also, with Li-ion batteries (or any other chemistry for that matter), the lifespan depends heavily on the usage pattern. I can get laptops to last 2 years before their battery drops below 50% capacity, but the way I use my MP3 players I'm lucky to get 1 year before the life drops below the same threshold. Charge-drain-dead-recharge is far harder on batteries than charge-drain-drain-drain-not dead yet-recharge anyway. In a way, its sorta like waiting until your gas tank until its empty before refilling. If you do that continously, your fuel filter will clog up with gunk much faster and possibly cause pre-mature wear on your engine. Still, EV batteries cost roughly twice as much to replace as a conventional powertrain.

And a 'dead' battery is usually one that can't hold more than about 1/4 of its design capacity. So if you only use your car for short trips, its not that big of a deal. But if you've got a 60 mile (100 km) commute each way, it can be pretty problematic.

[fielderLS3]

I always like when people post to promote electric cars, because then I get to explain why what they were sold at the dealer is wrong.

Originally Posted by 2Muchmark

An $80k + 15% HST Tesla Model S - $8,000 green tax credit from the Quebec Government. With 3.99% financing (A little high but ok) PLUS electricity ($0.08 of Electricity = $1.40 Per Litre of Gas Equivalent) means everything will cost me $1079.81 per month, ENERGY INCLUDED, Tax included.

You're a bit off on your cost calculations. It's more like $.30 per liter equivalent cost...and that assumes an unrealistic 100% efficiency for the electric motor, and would be for cheap Midwest US coal plant electric rates (willing to bet your rates in Canada are higher), so in reality, the electricity probably costs even more than that for you.

You are also counting the tax credit as savings as well, as if that wasn't your own money you are getting back. If you lose $20, and find $20 the next day, you didn't make $20.

You are also failing to take longevity into account. The Camaro will last twice as long before dying than a Tesla, so to really figure out your costs, you have to compare the cost of two Teslas to a conventional car.

I also point out a flaw in your financing math as well. At $80K + 15% minus 8K tax credit, a $1080 payment at 4% will have you making payments for 1-2 years after the payments end on your Camaro, and possibly after the Tesla batteries degrade.

You also have to be careful about what Tesla salesmen claim the "actual" cost of the car is if you take energy into account. For example, if you scrutinize their "costs you $500 a month" US lease plan they just announced, you will find that they assume the time you save having an electric "save" you $300. So unless the few minutes a month you spend standing next to the gas pump while it pumps "costs" you $300, then your actual cost may well be $300 more a month than what the Tesla salesman is trying to convince you of.

Originally Posted by 2Muchmark

Frustrating! For the same price I can race and beat almost anyone on the road without polluting at all.

Also wrong. If your electricity comes from a coal plant (and most of it does), you'd be polluting less with a gas car. I won't even get into the environmental damage done by the batteries (raw material mining, processing, and disposal).

And if you think its so fast, let's race. I'll put my Oldsmobile up against it. It's got a bad transmission, but I bet I still get to California days before you do.

Originally Posted by 2Muchmark

Oh well - this will be my last gas car.

All the high profile electric car companies are filing for bankruptcy, and Tesla is in the red as well...so I'll want to see pics of that next car, because I do like diesels, and think natural gas powered cars would be cool too.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by fielderLS3

Also wrong. If your electricity comes from a coal plant (and most of it does), you'd be polluting less with a gas car..

It absolutely does not. I don't know where the coal plant(s) are in Quebec, but if they only produce around 1% of the electricity for the province, and he lives in a city with more than 1/3 the population ... chances are slim to nil that the bulk of his juice comes from that high-carbon black rock known as coal.

[2Muchmark]

Originally Posted by jd10013

people also tend to ignore the plethora of problems the Tesla has had, the two biggest being range and cold weather effects on the battery. when The NY times took one out they couldn't even finish the test drive because the cold weather killed the battery too fast. not to mention if that battery hits 0% then it will "brick" as they call it and need a 40k replacement.

Sure, except for 1 thing : The reporter, John Border who took the car for a test drive, LIED ABOUT HIS TRIP. The car never ran out of juice, he ignored the advice of Tesla, he drove PAST charging stations, and all kinds of things. You can read the full report, and how Tesla caught him in his lies, here : http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/most...iar-test-drive

Originally Posted by jd10013

anyone who thinks they're that great, go buy one. and after you do that, go look at who owns and runs that company. you'll then understand how they've gained access to so much taxpayer money.

Of course. Elon Musk, father of Paypal, owner of SPACE X, and of course Tesla. Brilliant man. What's your point?

Originally Posted by JoansDriver

Large portions of rainforest are destroyed all the time in order to provide the material that makes up lithium ion batteries.

Um.... what? That is not true at all. You can read how Lithium batteries are really made here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

The rainforests are being destroyed for wood and timber, farms, land for poor farmers who have no where else to live, grazing land for cattle, pulp, etc.

Originally Posted by Firefighter

Go see the smoke stacks at that coal power plant that supplies your house... then look at what comes out of your tail pipe. Just saying.

Originally Posted by JoansDriver

Precisely. It's far from perfect. And to wit, I'd say it's probably far more trouble than it's worth.

But is it cheaper to run? Is it cleaner to drive? Is it higher tech? Yes, yes and yes...

Originally Posted by JoansDriver

If something goes south, I'm sure the car has to go back to a Tesla dealer to be serviced. You can't take the car into any avg Joe mechanic.

Not while its under warranty thats for sure, and just like any car, you would only want to take it to the dealer for repairs usually anyway.

And FYI, There is a Tesla Service station in Laval, Quebec, with a dealership opening next year. True there aren't many, but times seem to be changing fast. (And I'm thrilled!)

Originally Posted by The Stig

I know exactly what article you're talking about.

Did you read Tesla's response? Where they posted all of the data that the car gathers while driving? They proved the NY Times author lied in the article, Tesla finished them off by filing a lawsuit against the NY Times.

Not saying Tesla's are perfect - but just pointing out the inaccuracies of the NY Times article.

Woohoo!! I didn't know they are suing the NY Times. Good for them!

[bw26ss]

my camaro is a garage queen, so the tesla would not be cheaper for me