[X25]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Thanks for posting this vid! Any word how these 2 tires compare longevity wise?

ORP looks like a truly superb venue. But frankly had I tested ST43 at Mosport, with mostly fast sweepers and a good straight vs the most notorious brake eating venue in Ontario (TMP) my report would have likely been very different (until I went to TMP that is.

Please elaborate on your "over braking, no braking" comment as I truly don't understand, but would like to. So thanks in advance!

I am surprised you found ST47 harder on rotors as their chart has them virtually even in this category.
Except for ST46 which shows considerably higher wear.

Cheers!

ORP is an amazing venue. It is very safe with little risk of damage in most places when you run out, and since I'm an ORP club member, I can have open track days with no sessions, 9-5; great to practice, do best laps, or just work on your car's setup.

I think Ryephile and RXtacy already talked more than enough on over-breaking, the plague of our generation, so we're good there. Again, it is tough to do for all of us, since things happen very quickly, and it is very hard to do the right judgement on when to start braking, etc., which itself is also a moving target, impacted by temps (pad, tire, road surface, etc.), your tire's condition, etc.

I've found ST43s to be kinder to rotors on my Miata with Wilwood BBK (which is low quality). When I switched back and forth from ST47s to ST43s on my Corvette, I did not notice any significant difference in bite, likely caused by Z06-spec brakes being very strong for the car (almost same system as yours but stops a car that weighs 400 lbs less) so decided to stick with the one easier on my rotors.

Regarding the tires, I'm not yet done testing them on longevity, but I tried the R7s again last Friday, and they seemed to have slowed down by 1+ seconds, despite having almost all the thread. I am guessing they're heat cycled out a bit after 2-3 track days. If they retain this traction, I'd still consider them good tires, but definitely not as good as how they started.

I never tried Pirellis brand new, and get them as scrubs. They seem to be more consistent (but not sure yet), but it might have to do with the fact that they were already used, so they likely already lost a bit of their magic before I ever saw them on my car, and the remaining life is more consistent. Considering I can get them for $600 shipped for a set, though, it is hard to complain (except for the lack of wider sizes ).

[glamcem]

tons of great info. I just got back from the alignment rack and it looks like my plan of extending the air ducting from the factory duct/outlet won't work as at the full lock wheels leave no room to fabricate any sort of extension to feed the rotors with fresh air :/

I remember driving X25s C6 Z06 with Stoptech BBK and ST43, that was the fastest decelerating, eye popping experience I will see if I can reduce some weight to get the car at around 3500lbs next season. That combined with the SRF, titanium shims and maybe GT3 ducts may alleviate some of the brake issues which is not the case on the Corvettes

[TrackClub]

RXtacy - thanks for posting a first non judgmental response in this long thread (apart from another member that cooked his too). Very informative.
I am fairly confident, that high torque pads plus a heavy car without uber cooling is not a good mix, hence many folks here looking for solutions to burned up calipers. Completely unnecessary as the stock system works just fine and is capable of consistent driving during regular HPDE sessions. And the car stops just fine, no matter the track config (I've had mine at 5 different venues thus fa with zero issues).

Ryephile - appreciate your views and completely agree with them. But I am way beyond HPDE Driving 101 and have been applying "in fast, out faster" mantra for many yrs now. Just to re-assure you that my lack of awareness regarding corner entry speed hasn't been an issue in quite a while now. And indeed I had to adjust my braking points with ST43s lest I would be parking her mid corner. NB Have you read Krumm's book yet? It is my fave. Love Ross dearly, but he needs to write a new book (and he's aware of it).

X25 - running high torque pads and braking "gently" is like having an 8000 red line but shifting at 6000. If that's what you guys have to do to manage heat, then what's the point?

Cem - save your money and buy a ZL1 1LE while your car is still worth a good trade in value. I know, I know you like modding instead. So all the power to ya!

Happy motoring gents!

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

RXtacy - thanks for posting a first non judgmental response in this long thread (apart from another member that cooked his too). Very informative.
I am fairly confident, that high torque pads plus a heavy car without uber cooling is not a good mix, hence many folks here looking for solutions to burned up calipers. Completely unnecessary as the stock system works just fine and is capable of consistent driving during regular HPDE sessions. And the car stops just fine, no matter the track config (I've had mine at 5 different venues thus fa with zero issues).

Ryephile - appreciate your views and completely agree with them. But I am way beyond HPDE Driving 101 and have been applying "in fast, out faster" mantra for many yrs now. Just to re-assure you that my lack of awareness regarding corner entry speed hasn't been an issue in quite a while now. And indeed I had to adjust my braking points with ST43s lest I would be parking her mid corner. NB Have you read Krumm's book yet? It is my fave. Love Ross dearly, but he needs to write a new book (and he's aware of it).

X25 - running high torque pads and braking "gently" is like having an 8000 red line but shifting at 6000. If that's what you guys have to do to manage heat, then what's the point?

Cem - save your money and buy a ZL1 1LE while your car is still worth a good trade in value. I know, I know you like modding instead. So all the power to ya!

Happy motoring gents!

Apply the brakes gently initially, you still get into them hard. Easy on, hard, easy off. Standard braking technique for most racers to not overload the front tires anyways.

Using ABS creates heat too vs threshold braking.

[TrackClub]

Agree std breaking tech to give the rear a chance to settle. Use it regardless of pads IMO. But that has lots to do with proper weight transfer and attitude of the car vs heat generation

[X25]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Apply the brakes gently initially, you still get into them hard. Easy on, hard, easy off. Standard braking technique for most racers to not overload the front tires anyways.

Using ABS creates heat too vs threshold braking.

+1; initial smoothness makes a big difference, and always reassess the braking threshold(s).

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by X25

+1; initial smoothness makes a big difference, and always reassess the braking threshold(s).

Of course it does: I like all 4 tires being engaged and obviously lock ups are bad.

But as much as I "get" what RXtacy is saying (reminded me of my very first day at a track and my instructor asking me to count "123" for application and release phase), I don't get what you're saying, starting with your previous statement that "high torque pads love gentle application" in a context of preventing the pads from overheating.

All pros go from zero to hard in a nano second, yet they still manage to settle the rear. That's why they are pros. I am by no means that gifted, but I do pay attention to the rear, don't stand up the car on its nose, modulate if/when required etc.

So, please help me out how "gentle" prevents overheating of high torque pads exactly.
If you could describe it in your own words I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!

[X25]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Of course it does: I like all 4 tires being engaged and obviously lock ups are bad.

But as much as I "get" what RXtacy is saying (reminded me of my very first day at a track and my instructor asking me to count "123" for application and release phase), I don't get what you're saying, starting with your previous statement that "high torque pads love gentle application" in a context of preventing the pads from overheating.

All pros go from zero to hard in a nano second, yet they still manage to settle the rear. That's why they are pros. I am by no means that gifted, but I do pay attention to the rear, don't stand up the car on its nose, modulate if/when required etc.

So, please help me out how "gentle" prevents overheating of high torque pads exactly.
If you could describe it in your own words I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!

To elaborate on what I was trying to say:
We usually have to start gentle for a very short term, yet quickly build up brake pressure almost to the limit. As you go with higher bite, this becomes harder to do right (for everyone). If you don't do it right, you would:

1. either end up locking up the brakes all the time (which would be easy to observe, and you'd readjust to prevent that),
2. or you would over-brake, slowing down more than you need.

As mentioned, (1) gives you a lot of feedback, so it's easy to fix. (2), on the other hand, is not trivial. The energy you convert in braking is mass*(Vstart^2 - Vend^2)/2. Even if you over-brake by a few MPH (smaller Vend), the end result might be substantially more energy that needs to be captured by brakes, since the graph of energy captured is relative to the square of these speeds.

In short, very short but gentle initial application lets you gauge the brakes' current bite, reducing chances of over-application. As such, it is related within the context of overheating brakes : )

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by X25

To elaborate on what I was trying to say:
We usually have to start gentle for a very short term, yet quickly build up brake pressure almost to the limit. As you go with higher bite, this becomes harder to do right (for everyone). If you don't do it right, you would:

1. either end up locking up the brakes all the time (which would be easy to observe, and you'd readjust to prevent that),
2. or you would over-brake, slowing down more than you need.

As mentioned, (1) gives you a lot of feedback, so it's easy to fix. (2), on the other hand, is not trivial. The energy you convert in braking is mass*(Vstart^2 - Vend^2)/2. Even if you over-brake by a few MPH (smaller Vend), the end result might be substantially more energy that needs to be captured by brakes, since the graph of energy captured is relative to the square of these speeds.

In short, very short but gentle initial application lets you gauge the brakes' current bite, reducing chances of over-application. As such, it is related within the context of overheating brakes : )

Cool! Got it! But frankly this is no different from a proper technique with any brakes. I drive my Tahoe this way And clearly, albeit high torque pads may be harder to modulate, the second example is easy to spot based on corner entry speed being too low. As I had stated, I did move my braking points accordingly, as I am well aware if I leave pace at the entry.

Anyhow, thanks for chiming in. I though there was something special required here, out of ordinary, like avoiding threshold braking perhaps (which would obviously negate having all this torque).

Again, appreciate your response here. Cheers!

[X25]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Cool! Got it! But frankly this is no different from a proper technique with any brakes. I drive my Tahoe this way And clearly, albeit high torque pads may be harder to modulate, the second example is easy to spot based on corner entry speed being too low. As I had stated, I did move my braking points accordingly, as I am well aware if I leave pace at the entry.

Anyhow, thanks for chiming in. I though there was something special required here, out of ordinary, like avoiding threshold braking perhaps (which would obviously negate having all this torque).

Again, appreciate your response here. Cheers!

Happy to contribute! : )

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Cem - save your money and buy a ZL1 1LE while your car is still worth a good trade in value. I know, I know you like modding instead. So all the power to ya!

My initial concern is not the lack of power but finding a way to stiffen up the suspension little bit so I can explore all the good sticky tire options without worrying about the body roll or other ill effects due to change in OEM parameters . I really like the power, braking and handling of the 1LE actually but I just think it could be a bit better as Camaro platform has so much potential as proven with the ZL1 1LE. I still consider getting a C5/C6 Z06 and turn one of them into a track car idea every once in a while because being light at the track is so much fun. Being relatively stock actually gives me the flexibility of considering different alternatives so I am not complaining

Also, I don't like the idea of going to track days with a $70k car which otherwise will collect dust in my garage during the rainy/winter season (possibility of total loss amount is almost twice as much in my case).

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by X25

Happy to contribute! : )

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by glamcem

My initial concern is not the lack of power but finding a way to stiffen up the suspension little bit so I can explore all the good sticky tire options without worrying about the body roll or other ill effects due to change in OEM parameters . I really like the power, braking and handling of the 1LE actually but I just think it could be a bit better as Camaro platform has so much potential as proven with the ZL1 1LE. I still consider getting a C5/C6 Z06 and turn one of them into a track car idea every once in a while because being light at the track is so much fun. Being relatively stock actually gives me the flexibility of considering different alternatives so I am not complaining

Also, I don't like the idea of going to track days with a $70k car which otherwise will collect dust in my garage during the rainy/winter season (possibility of total loss amount is almost twice as much in my case).

Ya agree. I think C5/C6 Vettes are incredible track car platforms (plus a hauler and trailer). Indeed light is king and their parts/consumables reasonable too. Plus motors easy to mod for big reliable power. It was with a very heavy heart that I had decided to switch paths, as my C5Z was very well sorted and competitive with many an uber car.

I think 1LE is a superb dual purpose car, but it does have some serious limitations vs the Vettes.
Heck, if you want serious pace, get a Howe TA2 Camaro But a garage queen C5Z plus 20Gs gets one a ton of pace with say 550HP and slicks.
There's no better for a "cheap" track monster IMO.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Ya agree. I think C5/C6 Vettes are incredible track car platforms (plus a hauler and trailer). Indeed light is king and their parts/consumables reasonable too. Plus motors easy to mod for big reliable power. It was with a very heavy heart that I had decided to switch paths, as my C5Z was very well sorted and competitive with many an uber car.

I think 1LE is a superb dual purpose car, but it does have some serious limitations vs the Vettes.
Heck, if you want serious pace, get a Howe TA2 Camaro But a garage queen C5Z plus 20Gs gets one a ton of pace with say 550HP and slicks.
There's no better for a "cheap" track monster IMO.

I really like the 1LE though since it's the best performance bargain under $70k (above C7 GS and ZL1 1LE are the best bargains IMP) , only track ready car along with the ones mentioned about..also considering the fact even the C7 GS with Z07 package (near $80k car) doesn't come with hud and some other goodies that SS 1LEs have for much less...

I still miss the lightweight-ness and raw feel of my C5Z06 though even with the hiccups that I had with that car (electrical issues, broken valve spring, clutch feel under some heat..etc) I think I liked the feel of the C5 Z06 even more than the brand new '13 C6 GS that I owned interestingly .. as you mentioned with some investment, effort and with good suspension such as Penskes maybe, BBK, roll bar, race seats/steering wheel, cooling mods and good set of wheels/tires they have potential to become a below 2900lbs 400 whp track weapon which I never experienced before.
Here's a good example of that I think


I am not worried about the streetability as I don't DD my Camaro as much anyways . When I do, however, it's really nice I have to tell that When I drive in touring mode with the new street setup I have (19" Apex and el-chepo Kumho tires) it does have a smooth ride and good technology goodies for comfort ..probably the best of the sports cars I had , it's only one rare occasions though. Commute with Camaro here where I live is not that fun with traffic, rain and people only drive 35 mph in 45 mph speed zone here is very common :/

When I was in Florida with a lot of open, 4 lane highway roads it was more fun to drive a V8 of course In tight twisty roads here in PNW and specifically where I live Miata is so much more fun to drive especially when top is down ..

I miss the Miata too but not the lack of its power :/ In short both Corvette and/or Miata options become a bit more "project" ..However, if I ever change the suspension and supporting mods of the ZL1 1LE, this car also becomes another project ..only way to save all those efforts is either stick with the OEM setup and maybe some slight mods (DSC, 18" wheels, race seat, lightweight flywheel maybe ..etc) After all, ZL1 1LE's extra hp, aero, bigger brakes/rotor, super sticky and wider tires/wheel combo makes up a 3 second of a difference at MRLS (both driven with Randy Pobst) so it's hard to guesstimate how much of that difference come from the $7k suspension if I were to go that route.. in other words, would it be worth all the hassle and investment to gain say maybe 1-1.5 second at the road course or if it would make more sense to weigh other alternatives .. Oh btw, that's assuming GM or aftermarket offers a reflash or tune for fault codes with MRC cars ..unfortunately, base model cars such as Gen 6 Camaro ss (w/o MRC) or C7 Z51 w/o MRC wins in that department..

X25 had some LG coilovers and he's getting Penskes now, hassle free changing of the track suspension is something I have been missing for a while

In short, there are so many other ways of having fun at the track days and I really like little bit of everything and believe there's nothing wrong with little experiment here and there without breaking the bank, that I think is my problem