UAW Killing Big 3?

[Dom]

Declaring bankruptcy would void those contracts. They should declare it then ask for a loan. Best of both worlds for them. If they get the loan before it will get eaten up really quick by UAW.

I blame the unions and upper management. If they made cars people want to buy they wouldn't have problems paying unions their high salaries. Since they don't they don't generate the revenues needed to pay the unions and now that becomes a problem. So bottom line they have to make better cars and negotiate better contracts so they can sell these cars for less. Nothing wrong with better and cheaper cars.

[chevydude26]

Originally Posted by Dom

Declaring bankruptcy would void those contracts. They should declare it then ask for a loan. Best of both worlds for them. If they get the loan before it will get eaten up really quick by UAW.

I blame the unions and upper management. If they made cars people want to buy they wouldn't have problems paying unions their high salaries. Since they don't they don't generate the revenues needed to pay the unions and now that becomes a problem. So bottom line they have to make better cars and negotiate better contracts so they can sell these cars for less. Nothing wrong with better and cheaper cars.

a lot of their cars take a hit on quality because of c.a.f.e standards and government regulations

the government and the unions put gm in this position

and we don't tariff the japanese companies where as they have protectionist tariff's in their countries

[baileyrx]

unions breed mediocrity

Main Entry: me·di·o·cre
Pronunciation: \ˌmē-dē-ˈō-kər\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin mediocris, from medius middle + Old Latin ocris stony mountain; akin to Latin acer sharp — more at edge
Date: circa 1586
: of moderate or low quality, value, ability, or performance

[fuffl]

Placing 100% of the blame on unions over-simplifies the situation, but they sure are doing their part. Sadly, it isn't just the Big 3 that they are screwing either. The UAW cripples American manufacturing as a whole.

Mitsubishi Motors, a small player has fits with the UAW in their American plant. Soon it will just be cheaper to leave and import the cars. The entire auto supplier network is also caught in it. Even if GM lowers their cost they are still in a disadvantaged state.

Finally, many manufacturing and warehousing companies that aren't teetering on bankruptcy are having the same troubles. Caterpillar for example is one of the strongest manufacturers in the US, but if things stay bad for long they could start to suffer the same pain at the hands of the UAW.

[Camaro_Corvette]

I'm suprised fbodfather hasn't picked this thread apart yet.

[AngryAmish]

Originally Posted by baileyrx

unions breed mediocrity

Main Entry: me·di·o·cre
Pronunciation: \ˌmē-dē-ˈō-kər\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin mediocris, from medius middle + Old Latin ocris stony mountain; akin to Latin acer sharp — more at edge
Date: circa 1586
: of moderate or low quality, value, ability, or performance

Fail (feyl)–verb (used without object) 1. to fall short of success or achievement in something expected, attempted, desired, or approved: "Your post failed because of lack of knowledge."

Common knowledge their cars are just as reliable, and mostly BETTER, than companies with non union workers.

The quality is not the problem. We get what we pay for. The problem is GM is not getting what we pay them. At least not enough to turn a good profit. The blame still lies on both the union and the company IMHO.

[Dom]

Any surprised all the manufacturing jobs are leaving the country? Much cheaper to pay someone else to do it and less headaches not dealing with unions. Soon there will be no jobs for the unions to do. It looks like unions are wiling to kill the golden goose each time too.

[Nickdago]

What they should do is let the Big 3 file some sort of sudo bankruptcy where the govermnet will guarantee that they have the funds to stay in business while giving them the opportunity to restructure their dealer contracts and UAW contracts. That way car buyers could rest easy that the Big 3 would continue to be able to honor their warranties as well as provide parts and service. This would marry the best parts of the so called bailout and bankruptcy. Otherwise the bailout really is nothing more than a Union bailout, not a bailout of our car companies.

If we are going to compete with not only the current foreign car companies but also the up and coming Chinese built cars we are going to have to make the UAW's part in our companies much smaller. The days of the Union's running our companies must come to an end.

[baileyrx]

Originally Posted by AngryAmish

Fail (feyl)–verb (used without object) 1. to fall short of success or achievement in something expected, attempted, desired, or approved: "Your post failed because of lack of knowledge."

Common knowledge their cars are just as reliable, and mostly BETTER, than companies with non union workers.

The quality is not the problem. We get what we pay for. The problem is GM is not getting what we pay them. At least not enough to turn a good profit. The blame still lies on both the union and the company IMHO.

i dont mean the product, i mean the union members themselves. I'm sure there are good hard working union workers, but most just float along because they can! "no need to work TOO hard, I'm getting paid anyway" mentality

my post was directed at UNIONS & the work ethic they instill, not at anywhere or anybody else...

i too think unions are a hold-overs from the industrial revolution, coal mines, auto manafacturers, etc, before the gov had OSHA & other regulatory agencies in place...

still have a place today? maybe, my opinion is no. not in most company's.

now in China, Tawain, most of SE Asia, most definitely...

[PJ]

Originally Posted by Hylton

Are you kidding me? Do you not realize the impact to the economy if GM files Chapter 11? Let me ask you a few questions -

Do you think the companies (a few of them) that make frames for GM's pick-up trucks and SUV's are going to continue to supply those parts when there is no gaurantee they will be paid?

Do you think the average American who is worried about his home and family is going to buy a new car from a company that is bankrupt which means they can legally refuse to pay for any warranty work? Truth is they would go somewhere else and then how many GM plants would still be building cars?

I wish I knew how many direct suppliers GM had to make you understand that a bankrupt GM means many bankrupt companies. Some of these companies can only survive if GM survives. Others, like Magna and American Axle for example, would face such a huge loss in business that it may effect the ability for those companies to supply Ford and Chrysler even though it's only GM going under.

Yes the union should be willing to make concessions without GM having to go under because surely they must see how many jobs are in jeopardy. They should also understand that Chapter 11 means a death sentence to their jobs and their wages.

Speaking of jobs, it is estimated that the ripple effect of GM going Chapter 11 is 3 million lost jobs in the United States. We all have to be very careful in what we wish for......some serious shit is about to be launched on all of us if GM goes Chapter 11.

Then your alternative is socialism. Because the news media has yet to report how the influx of capital to GM is going to turn around the company to profitability for the 21st century.
Let them fall. Break the UAW, reorganize, pay market wages and benifits and build a profitable company.
Big bloated bad companies should fail, it will get tough, but the free market will adjust.

The government should not be bailing out businesses, should not be protecting business. They should get the hell out of business's way, quit taxing them like cash cow, and watch the prospect of risk and profitability take American companies past all foreign competitors.

[garagelogic]

If anybody really believed GM or any of the big 3 had the ability to turn things from just receiving a loan, then the private sector would be offering to give them the money they need. The fact that they are not just proves this is not a good deal for the taxpayers.

Yes, I do realize how many jobs could be lost. So be it. I imagine many of those people will find other jobs. Will they be able to command the same wage or standard of living, probably not, but then again, a lot of union workers have been enjoying the money they are making well above what non-union workers make. Maybe that would open some eyes in this country.

[MajorTom]

Non union auto plants may pay the same, but there's more than just the pay to think about.

These unions support the workers so that jobs can't be taken away and leave Americans jobless. They also support their workers and allow them to retire with packages setup for them.

*********************************

Non union auto plants offer less job security.

Just because we want our Camaros doesn't mean we should wish to put other hardworking americans out of decent jobs. That kind of mentality makes me sick really.

If there is corruption in the auto union, it should stop, but the big 3 signed and agreed to a contract so I doubt there were provisions in it for mass amounts of money to go to some random union leaders. And I doubt that's what's happening anyway.

Pay should be in line with living expenses and work done, unions ensure that their workers are able to live decently for doing their jobs. No corporation is going to willingly pay their employees more money than they believe they have to, and as I mentioned before, they'll sell the job to the lowest bidder with no regard for "the little guy". They'd keep as much money as possible in the hands of a select few and pad their wealth by keeping most people poor.

As far as i know the only non union auto plants are from import brands.

Saying the unions that protect American workers are bad because they're keeping you from getting you camaro cheap or whatever is really narrow minded.

Compare it to construction unions. The workers are guaranteed wages and if a company is unwilling to pay them they strike and the corporation has no labor until they come to an agreement. That's not unreasonable. The corporations get greedy and the unions keep them in check. Negotiations keep them both in check. It's a good system to protect workers and keep them well paid and taken care of for what is really hard work deserving of such pay.

In the case of construction, without unions, the competition for labor is much more fierce and that breeds bidding wars. Companies are forced out of business because they ask for decent wages, but lose those bidding wars to companies that will work for scraps and pay their workers scraps. The quality of living for all workers in that field goes down and it's no longer a good way for any average guy to make a good living.

Trust me. Unions are a good thing.

[baileyrx]

good points^ majortom

[MajorTom]

Just for the record, I'm not in a union. I just think they're a good idea.

And I'm not a flag waving redneck or anything like that either.

For too long has the kind of talk in my post been spouted by rednecks who, well, I wouldn't compare myself to them. But I'm a firm believer that American workers need to be guaranteed jobs. We live in a wealthy society, but because of that there are incredible extremes of class. From the ridiculously wealthy to the desperately poor. They say the American dream is that any man can be whatever he wants. But that's not always true.

Unions allow this to some extent. A person can get a union job and in a few years begin making their maximum pay rate. Then they can work for his 30 years or so and then retire with a pension and live decently. So it's very reasonable to support a union.