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Old 06-28-2009, 01:37 AM   #85
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This is such a different situation its not even funny. Japan/Germany had EMPIRES stretching across continents, military establishments all over the place. AND a mobilized fighting force. While Vietnam and Afghanistan had cave/jungle fighters with no established base.


N. Korea has 2 real cities, and is JUST starting their missile program. Meaning they aren't going to have some great hidden facility, we probably know exactly where the weapons are. South Korea has nukes, they can defend themselves by blowing up the whole region. We just need to disarm North Korea.
First of all, the Vietnamese were organized with their military, and they did have established bases. The Vietnamese had a vast network of tunnels that they could hide entire armies inside, and they effectively used against the US. I hate to use a movie for an example, but go watch We Were Soldiers. The entire army was hidden inside a mountain. I personally know a Vietnam vet whose duty was to be a "tunnel rat" and go in with a flash light and pistol and explore those tunnels. The Vietnamese, after years of digging, had a network so big that they had chambers that were as large as football fields.

However, it was not this fact that led to our eventual withdrawal from Vietnam. It was due to the fact that we did not have the support of the locals on the ground. Due to this simple fact, we were doomed to never truly win Vietnam; it was just a war that was prolonged by pure firepower.

Second, no they don't have nukes. WE have nukes. And, it would take an act of all out war for us to use them. Also, I agree that North Korea should not have nuclear weapons, but what truly can we do? If we forcefully disarm them, we are not respecting their sovereignty as a nation, and that makes us no better than Russia when they invaded Georgia. I am of the opinion that we should just keep up the current embargos against North Korea as well as find ways to establish new ones; if they cannot get the supplies to build missiles or nuclear weapons, then they won't have the capabilities to ever build them... they could never fabricate the materials themselves.
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Old 06-28-2009, 04:01 AM   #86
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Second, no they don't have nukes. WE have nukes. And, it would take an act of all out war for us to use them. Also, I agree that North Korea should not have nuclear weapons, but what truly can we do? If we forcefully disarm them, we are not respecting their sovereignty as a nation, and that makes us no better than Russia when they invaded Georgia. I am of the opinion that we should just keep up the current embargos against North Korea as well as find ways to establish new ones; if they cannot get the supplies to build missiles or nuclear weapons, then they won't have the capabilities to ever build them... they could never fabricate the materials themselves.
Hopefully things can be resolved without bloodshed. As long as they keep pushing their nuc program tension will just build. Taepodong ballistic missile is the platform for their long range delivery system, and their range has greatly improved since the last test launch, dispite the current embargos. Like CanadianRocky said, coming in and bombing them won't make them roll over. And I can't see us just nuking them either. The way it looks is that we're going to keep doing more of what we've been doing...and wait for Kim to do something stupid.
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Old 06-28-2009, 08:15 AM   #87
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Old 06-28-2009, 12:55 PM   #88
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Old 06-28-2009, 01:33 PM   #89
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This is such a different situation its not even funny. Japan/Germany had EMPIRES stretching across continents, military establishments all over the place. AND a mobilized fighting force. While Vietnam and Afghanistan had cave/jungle fighters with no established base.
Sure they where different wars.

What the Germans, Japanese, North Vietnamese and Taliban have in common, is that they believe they where/are right.

In that comparison, North Korea and the above are exactly the same.

The danger is not the fourth largest standing army in the world, the guns pointing toward Soul or even if they have Nukes.

The danger lies in what they believe to be their truth.
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Old 06-28-2009, 01:44 PM   #90
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If Lil Kim does fire a missile anywhere close to US Soil, My two concerns are as follows:

#1 we fire our Anti-Missle defense system and miss...Now every two-bit dictator knows what we can't do...

#2 Our current commander-in-chiefs flies to NK to apologize to them for offending them.
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Old 06-28-2009, 01:52 PM   #91
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If Lil Kim does fire a missile anywhere close to US Soil, My two concerns are as follows:

#1 we fire our Anti-Missle defense system and miss...Now every two-bit dictator knows what we can't do...

#2 Our current commander-in-chiefs flies to NK to apologize to them for offending them.
I wouldn't worry about number one , number two definitely
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Old 06-28-2009, 04:44 PM   #92
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Not good.. Hopefully someone will at least throw a hand on his collar and say: "Obama, think about this. You've seen how the embargos worked.." I may disagree with him, but I will stand among those that say "don't get yourself killed over something so trivial. let him peter out.."
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Old 06-28-2009, 06:23 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by UCI CamaroFan View Post
First of all, the Vietnamese were organized with their military, and they did have established bases. The Vietnamese had a vast network of tunnels that they could hide entire armies inside, and they effectively used against the US. I hate to use a movie for an example, but go watch We Were Soldiers. The entire army was hidden inside a mountain. I personally know a Vietnam vet whose duty was to be a "tunnel rat" and go in with a flash light and pistol and explore those tunnels. The Vietnamese, after years of digging, had a network so big that they had chambers that were as large as football fields.

However, it was not this fact that led to our eventual withdrawal from Vietnam. It was due to the fact that we did not have the support of the locals on the ground. Due to this simple fact, we were doomed to never truly win Vietnam; it was just a war that was prolonged by pure firepower.

Second, no they don't have nukes. WE have nukes. And, it would take an act of all out war for us to use them. Also, I agree that North Korea should not have nuclear weapons, but what truly can we do? If we forcefully disarm them, we are not respecting their sovereignty as a nation, and that makes us no better than Russia when they invaded Georgia. I am of the opinion that we should just keep up the current embargos against North Korea as well as find ways to establish new ones; if they cannot get the supplies to build missiles or nuclear weapons, then they won't have the capabilities to ever build them... they could never fabricate the materials themselves.


1. Everything you said about Vietnam reinforces my argument about how different they are....

2. Our nukes are there to protect South Korea from N. Korea. They dont have them on Loan. If the North bombs the $hit out of the south, and their backs are against the wall... dont you think the South will use all the weapons at their disposal?


3. Agree, if we forcefully disarm them we are respecting them. Guess for that argument to stand we have to ignore Iraq. OBVIOUSLY the best choice of action is to wait it out, but if the North really goes full retard and decides to launch what they have, no sense in leaving them anything to work with.




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Sure they where different wars.

What the Germans, Japanese, North Vietnamese and Taliban have in common, is that they believe they where/are right.

In that comparison, North Korea and the above are exactly the same.

The danger is not the fourth largest standing army in the world, the guns pointing toward Soul or even if they have Nukes.

The danger lies in what they believe to be their truth.



AHHH!!! A country who believes their own interests are right!!!



How significant.
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Old 06-28-2009, 06:38 PM   #94
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1. Everything you said about Vietnam reinforces my argument about how different they are....

2. Our nukes are there to protect South Korea from N. Korea. They dont have them on Loan. If the North bombs the $hit out of the south, and their backs are against the wall... dont you think the South will use all the weapons at their disposal?


3. Agree, if we forcefully disarm them we are respecting them. Guess for that argument to stand we have to ignore Iraq. OBVIOUSLY the best choice of action is to wait it out, but if the North really goes full retard and decides to launch what they have, no sense in leaving them anything to work with.
1. You said how they did not have established bases, I said you are wrong and there were full on bases.

2. Do you not get that they do not have possession of the nuclear weapons, it is instead Americans who can pull the trigger? It is not their call whether the weapons get used.

3. First of all, I am going to assume you meant disrespecting.

Second, Iraq was something unprecedented in that we employed a preemptive strike. Though the original stated reason for going to war with Iraq was to disarm the weapons of mass destruction, none were ever found. As the commonly spoken phrase goes, those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it... do we really want to barge into North Korea and "disarm" them, only to have another occupation on our hands?

So yes, at least we are in agreement that waiting is the best option.
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Old 06-28-2009, 06:39 PM   #95
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AHHH!!! A country who believes their own interests are right!!!

How significant.
The purpose of an international community, is that to some extent we get along.

NK's leaders interests would be to get along with the rest of the world.

They choose not to. They are a rogue leadership that misleads their people for the sole purpose of the leaders interests.

My contention is that they are NOT a country who believes in their own interests, they are a country who have been brainwashed into thinking they do.

Their "truth" is a convoluted combination of propaganda and ultra-nationalism fed by a hatred of everything not North Korean.

In many respects this is just Cambodia all over again and Pol Pot with a bad hair day.
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Old 06-28-2009, 06:51 PM   #96
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So yes, at least we are in agreement that waiting is the best option.
I don't know how I think about this.

But we really have no choice until China does something about it.

The west is in no position to do anything about it UNLESS he strikes out at us.

We could stop his boats, but we have no idea what is happening in the back rooms of China and the US right now. China wants to be the second and third world supplier of munitions and they might be making it tough on the US to keep it so that they can be.

North Korea is located well to be the middle point of distribution for the arms and they are in their spere of influence.

How would the west feel if China told us to stay out of the middle east?

One thing for certain, this is just one huge fuster cluck.
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Old 06-29-2009, 10:09 AM   #97
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One thing for certain, this is just one huge fuster cluck.
Absolutely true.

This whole argument is sort of pointless honestly. America doesn't have the national will to get into another war, period. Unless NK actually bombs someone America's not going to do jack. Really China is in the driver's seat on this issue. So I guess it can be an entertaining mental exercise to speculate on, but it's pointless .
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Old 06-29-2009, 10:28 AM   #98
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Here is a good read on the assistance we have given N. Korea.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS21834.pdf

N. Korea does this whenever they feel they are losing popularity with their people. Then they get the aid, mostly from us. However most of the aid goes to feeding their military, not the population. Someone needs to oversee the dispersing of the aid over there.

China won't do anything and does not want us to do anything because they don't want all the N. Korean refugees heading north into their country causing economic disaster for them. Russia just likes seeing anybody f-ing with us.

So, we're back to giving a s-load of aid to them and not knowing where it's going. Pointless circle that will continue sucking us dry.
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