14 Camaro SS donor to 1970 Chevelle alarm/lock issues - Page 2 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

pcguy2u · 07-22-2022, 12:59 PM

Lots of thoughts here. Will report after I test with the analog meter which will be here early next week...

Thx, Nick

pcguy2u · 07-23-2022, 11:26 AM

One other thought. May have missed the answer to this question, but it may be critical to both the understanding of the issue and the ultimate fix. Does anyone know what the effect of a fixed signal (ground in this case) is, in place of the momentary signals indicated twice in the lower left corner of the image in post #1?

pcguy2u · 07-28-2022, 10:03 AM

Still on this; have re-read the info that I have read time and again and I have come to the same conclusion... The reference to momentary is suspect. The difference between paragraphs 2&3 is that the switch is either open or closed (not clear if the reference applies to the door, as opposed to the switch itself) and there is no mention of momentary. Normally don't want to "lead the witness" in cases like this, but the issue is not self evident. Please correct me on this.

If you have a moment would you please read the highlighted area on the lower right and let us know if you have any thoughts in that regard. The pin references relate directly to the drawing in post #1 above.

gtstorey · 07-28-2022, 10:54 AM

This is why I speculated that momentary just means a non latching switch. The only way of answering this I think is to play with the door latch module. You should be able to figure it out with a digital multi-meter if you can manipulate the switch.

pcguy2u · 07-28-2022, 11:17 AM

Below are the test results (in ohms) in that regard from some time back:

I want to infer from the results that when 4 is open to both 8 and 6 the latch is locked???

In my opinion, these results are not conclusive and seem to defy the testing instructions above. As usual, I may be missing something.

I will verify those measurements just as soon as I tear the driver's side apart.

pcguy2u · 07-28-2022, 02:53 PM

Connected everything as I now think it should be, with the Camaro oem latch disconnected and things worked almost correctly. Needed to have both the Camaro oem window switches and the Camaro oem window motor controllers installed without the oem motors.

Circuit 3270 is not connected to anything in this test. Tried to find the testing procedure for circuit 3270/pin 4, but couldn't find it...

Have a recall fix at the Chevy dealer in the morning and will see if the shop foreman can get an answer to the question...

gtstorey · 07-28-2022, 02:59 PM

Not sure what column goes to what from what you posted The test procedure is just checking to see that the switch is functioning and doesn't have dirty/damaged contacts. The actual readings don't matter that much.

But I'm not sure that you are thinking about these switches in the correct way. Pins 1, 4 and 6 don't actually do anything as far actually locking. They just signal status. The BCM sees ground on 1or 6 and it knows either the door is open or closed (I can't tell the door status from the diagram). If it sees ground on 4 it knows that it needs to lock the door (or unlock). Readings between pins 4 & 6 don't mean anything since all it means is the are both grounded and the.

The BCM then takes these signals and uses it's logic to decide whether the doors need to locked, to send a door ajar message, and whatever else needs to know the status. What the test procedure does seem to indicate is the door ajar signal is a continuous signal that you can replicate with an old fashion, cheap door ajar switch (normally open switch) that was used for 100 years, if 6 to 8 is closing/grounding when the door is closed. If 6-8 is open when the door is closed, then it might get a little harder since I'm not sure if you can find a normally closed door ajar switch from an automotive application. But you can find normally open door switches from other applications.

If you want this system to work the same as designed in the Camaro, the key lock/unlock is probably harder. The BCM will likely take the ground status from the key being turned to know that it needs to change status from locked to unlocked or unlocked to locked. This will be harder to replicate with a mechanical lock although you might be able to do two switches on the lock linkage alternately ground depending on which direction the key is turned. These would need to be placed in such a way that it is a true momentary signal (speculating) since it probably won't like a full time ground signal when it is expecting a key to be turned and released. You also might be able to accomplish this with a relay of some type.

pcguy2u · 07-28-2022, 03:58 PM

Fixed the alignment, probably while you were typing. Trying to understand how pin 1 is used in your above. Where did that come from?

I'm with you on the pins; the tests results (numbers) don't mean much, but just provide an indication of what the internal states of latch contacts are.

The owner's manual specifies that opening the door with the key is not recommended; if the alarm is set, opening the door will trigger the alarm.

Take a look at the new chart with the alignment fixed. The balance of what needs to be fixed at this point seems to relate to how pin 4 interacts with the BCM; ie what is it supposed to be providing and when? Under the setup as it is right now, pin 4 has no connection...

gtstorey · 07-28-2022, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcguy2u

Fixed the alignment, probably while you were typing. Trying to understand how pin 1 is used in your above. Where did that come from? I'm referring to pin one on the passenger DLA doing the same thing as pin on the driver DLA

I'm with you on the pins; the tests results (numbers) don't mean much, but just provide an indication of what the internal states of latch contacts are.

The owner's manual specifies that opening the door with the key is not recommended; if the alarm is set, opening the door will trigger the alarm.

Take a look at the new chart with the alignment fixed. The balance of what needs to be fixed at this point seems to relate to how pin 4 interacts with the BCM; ie what is it supposed to be providing and when? Under the setup as it is right now, pin 4 has no connection...

Pin 4 is grounded (connecting 4-8) when the key is turned, (speculating since I've never studied the key mechanism)

If your readings are correct then you have a failed DLA (based upon the test procedure) or you are doing things with a loose DLA that it can't do in the car.

gtstorey · 07-28-2022, 04:42 PM

Maybe I'm thinking wrong about the function of Pin 4. Maybe the key is actually mechanically unlocking the DLA and pin 4 is the status that it has been unlocked when the switch is closed. I had been thinking that key was a switch that instructed the bcm to lock the doors. It actually makes more sense that it would mechanically unlock the door since you couldn't unlock it with a dead battery with my previous line of thinking. That would match your readings for 4-8. This means that you could probably simulate the grounding of pin 4 with a single switch somewhere on a mechanical lock system of the Chevelle.

I think you are probably not able to manipulate the DLA correctly to simulate the door opening and closing since it appears that the switch with pin 6 never changes from closed. Or the DLA is failed.

pcguy2u · 07-29-2022, 07:07 AM

Heading to my service appointment soon and will let you know what the shop foreman says about pin 4...

pcguy2u · 07-30-2022, 09:22 AM

Talked to the SM, shop foreman and even the GM and got head scratching...

Went thru some of my old emails on this subject and found the below from from a really helpful fellow named John from NZ. It's from the 2013 manual.

The drawing in post 1 is from the 2010 manual and as I understand it there were some not so insignificant changes to the 2013-15 models. Although there is still no documentation on the circuit 3270.

In any case, this drawing provides some info on that may suggest that leaving circuit 3270 disconnected is not an issue???

Thoughts?

Nick

gtstorey · 07-30-2022, 12:01 PM

As far as what pin 4 actually does is probably not completely answerable from wiring diagrams and service diagnostic procedures. At some point it will be whatever the logic in the bcm does with the info. I still think it likely it part of the manual key lock/unlock, and more likely is sending a status to the bcm on lock vs unlock than to be my original premise of being a signal telling the bcm to unlock the door. It really doesn’t matter wether it is directly sent to the bcm or the window switch module interprets the signal and relays it to the bcm via the data channel. Since it doesn’t disarm the alarm according to the owners manual, there is even a chance it doesn’t really do anything with the status. The only way to know for sure would be to get a copy of the actual code within the bcm.

If it was me, I would put a manual switch on that circuit with it going to ground and try different scenarios to see if you can get the alarm to do what you want. Once you figure that out you can either remove it completely or figure out how to replicate what it does.

The same thing goes for pin 6. The bcm is likely using that data to know about door ajar or latched/unlatched status but how that exactly figures into the logic is not really possible to tell from what we have. It sends that signal to the window module to lower/raise the window and also sends the status to the bcm over the data channel.

pcguy2u · 07-31-2022, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtstorey

If it was me, I would put a manual switch on that circuit with it going to ground and try different scenarios to see if you can get the alarm to do what you want. Once you figure that out you can either remove it completely or figure out how to replicate what it does.

Pretty weird how we came to the same conclusion about the switch. Here's what happened and which confused me (it happens!) at first so I couldn't recall at the moment if I had set the alarm or not and it didn't even occur to me to think about that until later in the day.

First off, in all my testing where I actually trigger the alarm from one door and then the other, the passenger door always sounds off in the alarm mode and the driver's door always sounds off with the lesser sound that happens when you press the "where are you/panic" button on the remote. If you leave the sound on without pressing the unlock, the sound changes to alarm mode; I think that's normal.

While testing yesterday (refer to paragraph one) I grounded pin 4 and the alarm triggered in alarm mode. There is a clue there and I haven't been back to see if I can replicate what happened yesterday.

It may have something to do with the panic vs normal operation. If that is the case, it might mean something about the sequence of events inside the DLA, and like you said, the use of the key???

More to follow...

07-22-2022, 12:59 PM	#15
pcguy2u Drives: 2009 Corvette ZR1 Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: On the coast North of SFBay Posts: 297	Lots of thoughts here. Will report after I test with the analog meter which will be here early next week... Thx, Nick __________________ Here's a link to my 70 Chevelle build thread: https://www.chevelles.com/forums/12-...aro-donor.html

07-23-2022, 11:26 AM	#16
pcguy2u Drives: 2009 Corvette ZR1 Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: On the coast North of SFBay Posts: 297	One other thought. May have missed the answer to this question, but it may be critical to both the understanding of the issue and the ultimate fix. Does anyone know what the effect of a fixed signal (ground in this case) is, in place of the momentary signals indicated twice in the lower left corner of the image in post #1? __________________ Here's a link to my 70 Chevelle build thread: https://www.chevelles.com/forums/12-...aro-donor.html

07-28-2022, 10:03 AM	#17
pcguy2u Drives: 2009 Corvette ZR1 Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: On the coast North of SFBay Posts: 297	Still on this; have re-read the info that I have read time and again and I have come to the same conclusion... The reference to momentary is suspect. The difference between paragraphs 2&3 is that the switch is either open or closed (not clear if the reference applies to the door, as opposed to the switch itself) and there is no mention of momentary. Normally don't want to "lead the witness" in cases like this, but the issue is not self evident. Please correct me on this. If you have a moment would you please read the highlighted area on the lower right and let us know if you have any thoughts in that regard. The pin references relate directly to the drawing in post #1 above. Attached Images __________________ Here's a link to my 70 Chevelle build thread: https://www.chevelles.com/forums/12-...aro-donor.html

07-28-2022, 11:17 AM	#19
pcguy2u Drives: 2009 Corvette ZR1 Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: On the coast North of SFBay Posts: 297	Below are the test results (in ohms) in that regard from some time back: I want to infer from the results that when 4 is open to both 8 and 6 the latch is locked??? In my opinion, these results are not conclusive and seem to defy the testing instructions above. As usual, I may be missing something. I will verify those measurements just as soon as I tear the driver's side apart. Attached Images __________________ Here's a link to my 70 Chevelle build thread: https://www.chevelles.com/forums/12-...aro-donor.html Last edited by pcguy2u; 07-28-2022 at 02:45 PM. Reason: Text lineup

07-28-2022, 02:53 PM	#20
pcguy2u Drives: 2009 Corvette ZR1 Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: On the coast North of SFBay Posts: 297	Connected everything as I now think it should be, with the Camaro oem latch disconnected and things worked almost correctly. Needed to have both the Camaro oem window switches and the Camaro oem window motor controllers installed without the oem motors. Circuit 3270 is not connected to anything in this test. Tried to find the testing procedure for circuit 3270/pin 4, but couldn't find it... Have a recall fix at the Chevy dealer in the morning and will see if the shop foreman can get an answer to the question... __________________ Here's a link to my 70 Chevelle build thread: https://www.chevelles.com/forums/12-...aro-donor.html

07-28-2022, 10:54 AM	#18
gtstorey Drives: 2010 Camaro SS2,L99, LSA SC Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 2,155	This is why I speculated that momentary just means a non latching switch. The only way of answering this I think is to play with the door latch module. You should be able to figure it out with a digital multi-meter if you can manipulate the switch.

07-28-2022, 02:59 PM	#21
gtstorey Drives: 2010 Camaro SS2,L99, LSA SC Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 2,155	Not sure what column goes to what from what you posted The test procedure is just checking to see that the switch is functioning and doesn't have dirty/damaged contacts. The actual readings don't matter that much. But I'm not sure that you are thinking about these switches in the correct way. Pins 1, 4 and 6 don't actually do anything as far actually locking. They just signal status. The BCM sees ground on 1or 6 and it knows either the door is open or closed (I can't tell the door status from the diagram). If it sees ground on 4 it knows that it needs to lock the door (or unlock). Readings between pins 4 & 6 don't mean anything since all it means is the are both grounded and the. The BCM then takes these signals and uses it's logic to decide whether the doors need to locked, to send a door ajar message, and whatever else needs to know the status. What the test procedure does seem to indicate is the door ajar signal is a continuous signal that you can replicate with an old fashion, cheap door ajar switch (normally open switch) that was used for 100 years, if 6 to 8 is closing/grounding when the door is closed. If 6-8 is open when the door is closed, then it might get a little harder since I'm not sure if you can find a normally closed door ajar switch from an automotive application. But you can find normally open door switches from other applications. If you want this system to work the same as designed in the Camaro, the key lock/unlock is probably harder. The BCM will likely take the ground status from the key being turned to know that it needs to change status from locked to unlocked or unlocked to locked. This will be harder to replicate with a mechanical lock although you might be able to do two switches on the lock linkage alternately ground depending on which direction the key is turned. These would need to be placed in such a way that it is a true momentary signal (speculating) since it probably won't like a full time ground signal when it is expecting a key to be turned and released. You also might be able to accomplish this with a relay of some type.

07-28-2022, 03:58 PM	#22
pcguy2u Drives: 2009 Corvette ZR1 Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: On the coast North of SFBay Posts: 297	Fixed the alignment, probably while you were typing. Trying to understand how pin 1 is used in your above. Where did that come from? I'm with you on the pins; the tests results (numbers) don't mean much, but just provide an indication of what the internal states of latch contacts are. The owner's manual specifies that opening the door with the key is not recommended; if the alarm is set, opening the door will trigger the alarm. Take a look at the new chart with the alignment fixed. The balance of what needs to be fixed at this point seems to relate to how pin 4 interacts with the BCM; ie what is it supposed to be providing and when? Under the setup as it is right now, pin 4 has no connection... __________________ Here's a link to my 70 Chevelle build thread: https://www.chevelles.com/forums/12-...aro-donor.html

07-28-2022, 04:42 PM	#24
gtstorey Drives: 2010 Camaro SS2,L99, LSA SC Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 2,155	Maybe I'm thinking wrong about the function of Pin 4. Maybe the key is actually mechanically unlocking the DLA and pin 4 is the status that it has been unlocked when the switch is closed. I had been thinking that key was a switch that instructed the bcm to lock the doors. It actually makes more sense that it would mechanically unlock the door since you couldn't unlock it with a dead battery with my previous line of thinking. That would match your readings for 4-8. This means that you could probably simulate the grounding of pin 4 with a single switch somewhere on a mechanical lock system of the Chevelle. I think you are probably not able to manipulate the DLA correctly to simulate the door opening and closing since it appears that the switch with pin 6 never changes from closed. Or the DLA is failed.

07-29-2022, 07:07 AM	#25
pcguy2u Drives: 2009 Corvette ZR1 Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: On the coast North of SFBay Posts: 297	Heading to my service appointment soon and will let you know what the shop foreman says about pin 4... __________________ Here's a link to my 70 Chevelle build thread: https://www.chevelles.com/forums/12-...aro-donor.html

07-30-2022, 09:22 AM	#26
pcguy2u Drives: 2009 Corvette ZR1 Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: On the coast North of SFBay Posts: 297	Talked to the SM, shop foreman and even the GM and got head scratching... Went thru some of my old emails on this subject and found the below from from a really helpful fellow named John from NZ. It's from the 2013 manual. The drawing in post 1 is from the 2010 manual and as I understand it there were some not so insignificant changes to the 2013-15 models. Although there is still no documentation on the circuit 3270. In any case, this drawing provides some info on that may suggest that leaving circuit 3270 disconnected is not an issue??? Thoughts? Nick Attached Images __________________ Here's a link to my 70 Chevelle build thread: https://www.chevelles.com/forums/12-...aro-donor.html

07-30-2022, 12:01 PM	#27
gtstorey Drives: 2010 Camaro SS2,L99, LSA SC Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 2,155	As far as what pin 4 actually does is probably not completely answerable from wiring diagrams and service diagnostic procedures. At some point it will be whatever the logic in the bcm does with the info. I still think it likely it part of the manual key lock/unlock, and more likely is sending a status to the bcm on lock vs unlock than to be my original premise of being a signal telling the bcm to unlock the door. It really doesn’t matter wether it is directly sent to the bcm or the window switch module interprets the signal and relays it to the bcm via the data channel. Since it doesn’t disarm the alarm according to the owners manual, there is even a chance it doesn’t really do anything with the status. The only way to know for sure would be to get a copy of the actual code within the bcm. If it was me, I would put a manual switch on that circuit with it going to ground and try different scenarios to see if you can get the alarm to do what you want. Once you figure that out you can either remove it completely or figure out how to replicate what it does. The same thing goes for pin 6. The bcm is likely using that data to know about door ajar or latched/unlatched status but how that exactly figures into the logic is not really possible to tell from what we have. It sends that signal to the window module to lower/raise the window and also sends the status to the bcm over the data channel.