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Old 10-13-2009, 11:33 AM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSCamaroZ28 View Post
As said, the Z28 is the Camaro-specific top model and is our true overall special performance car. The 4th Gen wrongly named the SLP car SS. They should have made the base V8 an SS and given the SLP car the Z28 name. It was revisionist and incorrect to do after all the years Z28 was at the top and it was gone. Also, ZL1 was not a regular production car OR a model, people just call it that for the engine. It is truly supposed to be called a COPO Camaro, an "off the menu" option. SS is good for top regular cars, special vehicles like Camaros and Corvettes get Z designations for their destroyers. The Camaro is also the real original "Z" car.
I agree with what you say here. Remember about the 1996 SS...it was actually called Z28SS!
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Old 10-13-2009, 06:50 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
For the Camaro.
The Z/06 Corvette was designed in 1963 (I believe).

In the past when an SS Camaro was available it was always Top Dog HP wise (1/4 miler).
Z/28 was a track car, hence the top end performance. It was not great at launching.

In th Vette the Grand Sport was the top dog (a race only Vette), but now it is the ZR1.
OK, the first significant Z Car, not a one year special model that disappeared for 38 years. The original Z28's had more underrated HP than the 396s. IIRC, the same goes for the 2nd Gen LT1's. Sure, the big blocks had more TQ, but they were heavy and poor handlers and brakers, not exactly an all-around top model. SS production was always mostly slow small blocks, Z28's were all performance cars that could do it all. With Corvettes having a top Z Car again, it only makes sense to have the most known Z Car in the world take it's place where it belongs. BTW, I've seen 1st Gen Z28's launch great and those 302's held records in drag racing and Trans Am racing. The same can't be said for SS's.
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Old 10-13-2009, 07:14 PM   #171
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Z06 had s 33 gallon gas tank, and special heavy duty springs front and rear, and revalved shock absorbers front and rear. And yes this COPO was started in 1963. As far as top dog yes, 1. Look at the sticker prices back then, which car cost more PER OPTION? 2. If the Camaro Z28 was no good at launching, why did they have numerically higher gears? 3:73s, 4;10s, with a 4;56 option available in 68& 69? Not great at launching, you ever drive a Z28? Hell the 69 I used to own the cam didnt come in till 3000rpm, red line was at 7000 on the AC tach and the damn thing didnt hardly want to idle below 1000 !!!!!!!! It had the cross-ram on it, god wish I had that car back, but my 72 aint no slouch either. O and remember the Original COPO ZR-1s, were big blocks.
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:06 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PieNsky View Post
The 302 with the 30/30 cam would still be limited to that rpm range. The ability to rev higher would not help it make additional hp.
The cross-ram was dealer installed.
Would like to see dyno numbers.
Your point?? Limited to what RPM range??? By the very fact of having a shorter stroke, the 302 would be much more likely to acheive higher RPMs, the very fact that dynos of 302s show them still pulling strong with more horse power in the 7000-8500 RPM range should tell you something, production 302s would pull 7,000 plus RPM right off the production line. The factory 302s were not so much limited by the 30/30 cam, they were much more limited by the valve springs and the fact that Chevy used press fit rocker arm studs instead of screw in studs. I think we all know the cross ram was dealer installed, again what is your point? The HP/RPM figures in my earlier post were dyno numbers taken from Chevy's own tests on in-house developement engines. I bought a '69 Z/28 DZ302 new in 1969, I and many other owners from back in the day can attest to the high revving ability of the 302s. Go look at technical articles on engine building and RPM dynamics, you will find that the shorter stroke makes high RPMs easier to acheive.
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Old 10-13-2009, 11:10 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSCamaroZ28 View Post
OK, the first significant Z Car, not a one year special model that disappeared for 38 years. The original Z28's had more underrated HP than the 396s. IIRC, the same goes for the 2nd Gen LT1's. Sure, the big blocks had more TQ, but they were heavy and poor handlers and brakers, not exactly an all-around top model. SS production was always mostly slow small blocks, Z28's were all performance cars that could do it all. With Corvettes having a top Z Car again, it only makes sense to have the most known Z Car in the world take it's place where it belongs. BTW, I've seen 1st Gen Z28's launch great and those 302's held records in drag racing and Trans Am racing. The same can't be said for SS's.
What?

I'm stating the facts, which are the SS was a drag car (didn't need to handle or brake) & the Z/28 (designed for road courses, top-end perf.) was set up for the track.
Apples and oranges!

Auto Editors of Consumer Guide(unbiased info.)
The 1967 Chevrolet
Camaro SS 396
Specifications
Wheelbase, inches: 108.1
Weight, lbs: 3,720
Number built: NA
Base price: $3,046

Top Available Engine
Type: ohv V-8
Displacement, cid: 396
Fuel system: 1 x 4bbl.
Compression ratio: 11.0:1
Horsepower @ rpm: 375 @ 5600
Torque @ rpm: 415 @ 3600

Representative Performance
0-60 mph, sec: 6.5
1/4 mile, sec. @ mph: 14.5 @ 99



The 1969 Chevrolet Camaro Z28
Specifications
Wheelbase, inches: 108.1
Weight, lbs: 3,765
Number built: 20,302
Base price: $3,185

Top Available Engine
Type: ohv V-8
Displacement, cid: 302
Fuel system: 2 x 4 bbl.
Compression ratio: 11.0:1
Horsepower @ rpm: 290 @ 5800
Torque @ rpm: 290 @ 4200

Representative Performance
0-60 mph, sec: 7.4
1/4 mile, sec @ mph: 15.12 @ 94.8


To the poster that asked, YES, I've driven a Z/28 and even owned a SS 396.
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Old 10-14-2009, 01:06 AM   #174
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I'm not gonna post magazine tests for those cars because I've seen alot better times for both LOL. My point is the Z28 was good at drag and road racing. It's held records in both. Only the big block SS's are considered drag cars though, and they were the production minority. Funny how a 14 second car was a "drag car" back then! Most 396 SS's and Z28s would have gotten beaten by a 350 TPI IROC-Z in the 0-60 and 1/4 mile and destroyed in every other aspect of performance. One of my friends owns all 3 1st Gen Z28's and he can launch them great! They do lack TQ in the beginning but they come flying up on you!

I wonder if the weights in those tests are accurate. Both over 3700lbs and the Z28 weighing more?! Seems a little heavy for a 1st Gen with a small block.
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Old 10-14-2009, 12:53 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23 View Post
the rpo codes that are listed have not been kept that way. for instance in 76, the RS RPO code was Z85 and there was no SS or Z28. for 1970, the RS was Z22. in 68 there were 4 different Z28 levels to choose from, 73 had no SS, 75 lost the Z28. and after looking at things, the Z28 RPO code, which was originally designated for the "Special Perf Components Pkg " is now the 1LE RPO code

so maybe in addition to the RS, SS, Z28, ZL1, we need a strictly 1LE camaro
What do you think a Camaro "1LE" ordering option would look like?
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Old 10-14-2009, 01:21 PM   #176
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A few months ago when Car and Driver tested the 3.6 Camaro they mentioned it's 0.7 second's faster than the SS396 they tested in 1968. So yeah, a 350 IROC-Z would run with that.
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:39 PM   #177
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Does stock performance numbers really mean anything. Anyone that really cares about performance changes things to make them faster, lighter, handle better, ect. So does a badge on the car make it faster? I don't think so. What ever car that GM picks to be the top, you can always make the other one as good as it or better.
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Old 10-14-2009, 03:39 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSCamaroZ28 View Post
I'm not gonna post magazine tests for those cars because I've seen alot better times for both LOL. My point is the Z28 was good at drag and road racing. It's held records in both. Only the big block SS's are considered drag cars though, and they were the production minority. Funny how a 14 second car was a "drag car" back then! Most 396 SS's and Z28s would have gotten beaten by a 350 TPI IROC-Z in the 0-60 and 1/4 mile and destroyed in every other aspect of performance. One of my friends owns all 3 1st Gen Z28's and he can launch them great! They do lack TQ in the beginning but they come flying up on you!

I wonder if the weights in those tests are accurate. Both over 3700lbs and the Z28 weighing more?! Seems a little heavy for a 1st Gen with a small block.
IMO - that's an interesting point that I don't really think of when these comparisons come up. Good point

To think the V6 Camaro can almost keep up with LT1 Z28s from not too long ago (weighing some 300+ pounds more) is pretty astounding to me. I wonder how long this performance will last? How long will there be a big enough market for GM, or anyone else for that matter, to support developing cars like this. Sure - we'd buy them, but the 17,000+ members we have couldn't justify this sort of car without the general public participating significantly. I'm for appreciating what we have and respectfully reflecting on generations of the past and recognize the huge improvements we've been able to enjoy over the last 40-years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zman302 View Post
Does stock performance numbers really mean anything. Anyone that really cares about performance changes things to make them faster, lighter, handle better, ect. So does a badge on the car make it faster? I don't think so. What ever car that GM picks to be the top, you can always make the other one as good as it or better.
However, sometimes it's easier to start with as good a car as a person wants before dumping God knows how much money into a lesser car. I think everyone enjoys benchracing too
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Old 10-14-2009, 03:56 PM   #179
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The main thing Im seeing in these discussions is that people still want the Z28 option to return whether its top dog or not........Chevrolet, are YOU listening??? These new Camaros have more, no ALOT more HorsePower than we had in the 60s. A V-6 that makes more h.p. than alot of the V-8 versions of Yesterday!!! Better mileage, better handling,alot better safety measures built in the overall car. Camaro enthusiasts still need the Z28 to compete with Fords Mustang Shelby. If Ford can buid a supercharged mustang shelby, why cant Chevrolet follow suit? Not everyone wants a Econo box, there are those,(myself included) who would be interested in seeing a car such as this return to the Chevy performance line-up. Okay Chevrolet........ the balls in your court. How about it F-Bod Father? Talk to me?
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Old 10-14-2009, 04:08 PM   #180
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i have no idea about the history of the z28 versus the SS, hell, i'm not old enough to know the difference. but i think why people are assuming the z28 will be a higher tier than the SS is because of one simple thing: engine

the speculation is that the z-28 will have much more power. although it's only speculation at this point, i think this is the only reason. if no one ever mentioned engine differences, then no one would talk about which version was the higher tier.

just my thought. and that's what i would think too if the z28 comes out with more power or a bigger engine.
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:10 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zman302 View Post
Does stock performance numbers really mean anything. Anyone that really cares about performance changes things to make them faster, lighter, handle better, ect. So does a badge on the car make it faster? I don't think so. What ever car that GM picks to be the top, you can always make the other one as good as it or better.
stock is the common denominator (along with price) when comparing to other manufacturers.
anyone can mod any car (there is no way to compare this) chevettes, pacers, etc... modded can run faster than REAL cars (no offense).
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:08 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PieNsky View Post
The 302 with the 30/30 cam would still be limited to that rpm range. The ability to rev higher would not help it make additional hp.
The cross-ram was dealer installed.
Would like to see dyno numbers.
Even the numbers from Super Chevy magazine's flawed 302/327/350 shoot out done recently (where they used incorrect parts in all of the builds) would seem to point out the RPM advantage of the 302, after 5800 RPM the 327 and 350 HP start to fall off while the 302 HP is still climbing and does not start to fall off until after 6800 RPM. And many other dyno runs by others have shown 302s still pulling strong with higher HP on into the 7500+ RPM range.
Clyde

HORSEPOWER NUMBERS (From Super Chevy magazive SBC Shootout)
RPM 302 327 350 350 ('71)
3000 167 196 208 199
3300 184 210 232 223
3500 206 232 254 246
3800 233 261 283 275
4000 248 275 298 291
4300 272 297 318 311
4500 283 308 329 324
4800 301 324 341 340
5000 311 333 347 347
5300 326 344 352 355
5500 333 349 353 361
5800 347 347 350 362
6000 350 348 348 361
6300 353 352 348 353
6500 356 347 342 345
6800 356 339 329 332
7000 352 331 312 319


TORQUE NUMBERS
RPM 302 327 350 350 ('71)
3000 292 332 364 349
3300 293 334 369 354
3500 309 348 381 369
3800 322 360 391 379
4000 325 362 391 382
4300 332 363 389 380
4500 331 360 383 378
4800 329 355 373 372
5000 327 350 364 364
5300 323 341 349 352
5500 318 333 337 345
5800 314 314 317 328
6000 307 305 305 316
6300 295 293 290 295
6500 287 281 277 279
6800 275 262 254 257
7000 264 248 234 239
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