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Old 04-05-2013, 04:42 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by camaro-dreamer View Post
The government has prepared a report summarizing CAFE for you. http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rul...al_Rule_FR.pdf

A couple of things are important. First, CAFE uses a harmonic mean. This means that vehicles which produce more CO2 count very heavily against manufacturers. However, CAFE also takes into account the footprint of vehicles. A formula for vehicle footprint is found in the above link.

Small vehicles with gas guzzling engines are very bad for manufacturers. Bigger vehicles, by virtue of their larger footprint, count less. To a certain extent, manufacturers can play the system to produce larger footprint cars and get a more lenient fuel economy standard. At the same time, these larger vehicles weigh more thus reducing fuel economy. There must be a fine balancing act.

Mathematically, there is a formula for determination of a fuel economy target in a given year. The formula can be found in the link I posted above. The parameters in the equation are given a physical interpretation. Their selection seems arbitrary though.
Its nice to see someone else who has read up on this stuff. One thing to add to that is that the fuel economy rating that we see on the window sticker isn't the same as the fuel economy used in the CAFE. The CAFE rating is based on a much older version of the EPA's fuel economy test and is around 20% higher than what we normally see. So if a car is advertised as being 19 city, 29 highway, 24 combined its CAFE score is going to be up around 29 mpg.

Also, to further add on to what you posted, the harmonic mean increases the importance of vehicles with low efficiency compared to a simple average. So it ends up that it is more important for an automaker to get a 2 mpg improvement on something that gets say 20 mpg than it is to get a 4 mpg gain on a car already getting 40 mpg. I think this is going to result in a lot more diesels in trucks and SUVs, particularly for the Detroit automakers who are very truck heavy compared to the imports.
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My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors......
........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:43 PM   #16
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A CAFE was just a place I ate at until I read this thread.
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:33 PM   #17
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Cafe means brown in spanish. Shit is brown too. End thread. Lol
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:41 AM   #18
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The TATA NANO is coming. Might get one. I can get an employee discount! ..............................
.................................................. .......................................
.................................................. .......................................

or not.
Absolutely correct, CAFE does mean we will all be driving a Tata Nano.
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:26 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by camaro-dreamer View Post
The government has prepared a report summarizing CAFE for you. http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rul...al_Rule_FR.pdf

A couple of things are important. First, CAFE uses a harmonic mean. This means that vehicles which produce more CO2 count very heavily against manufacturers. However, CAFE also takes into account the footprint of vehicles. A formula for vehicle footprint is found in the above link.

Small vehicles with gas guzzling engines are very bad for manufacturers. Bigger vehicles, by virtue of their larger footprint, count less. To a certain extent, manufacturers can play the system to produce larger footprint cars and get a more lenient fuel economy standard. At the same time, these larger vehicles weigh more thus reducing fuel economy. There must be a fine balancing act.

Mathematically, there is a formula for determination of a fuel economy target in a given year. The formula can be found in the link I posted above. The parameters in the equation are given a physical interpretation. Their selection seems arbitrary though.
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Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
Its nice to see someone else who has read up on this stuff. One thing to add to that is that the fuel economy rating that we see on the window sticker isn't the same as the fuel economy used in the CAFE. The CAFE rating is based on a much older version of the EPA's fuel economy test and is around 20% higher than what we normally see. So if a car is advertised as being 19 city, 29 highway, 24 combined its CAFE score is going to be up around 29 mpg.

Also, to further add on to what you posted, the harmonic mean increases the importance of vehicles with low efficiency compared to a simple average. So it ends up that it is more important for an automaker to get a 2 mpg improvement on something that gets say 20 mpg than it is to get a 4 mpg gain on a car already getting 40 mpg. I think this is going to result in a lot more diesels in trucks and SUVs, particularly for the Detroit automakers who are very truck heavy compared to the imports.

Thanks again for the objective responses....The PDF file is awesome, and intimidating...lol...

The "MPG" figure apparently is only a part of the "formula" and the one we mostly use to try and wrap our minds around this dilemna...Interesting how the lower range mpg cars, like Camaros, their weight in relation to mpg, etc....Seems odd to a layman that lighter weight cars, with lower mpgs, get gigged more than others...In the 6th gen, for example, if the cars are significantly lightened, yet retain powerful V-8s with relatively low MPG, seems that works against satisfying CAFE...dunno...interesting...

The Devil is always in the details, and that's what I think we need to hear more of to understand all this...Thanks again...
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Old 07-17-2018, 11:14 AM   #20
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...bump...lol
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Old 07-17-2018, 01:33 PM   #21
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...bump...lol
I had completely forgot I had posted this 5 years ago:

Quote:
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... I think this is going to result in a lot more diesels in trucks and SUVs, particularly for the Detroit automakers who are very truck heavy compared to the imports.
Well, I pretty much nailed it on the trucks. Within about a year, every half ton from the domestics is going to have a diesel -plus the midsizers from GM, and the '5/8 ton' Nissan Titan XD.



Not so right on the SUVs though. They're still looking pretty rare.
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Originally Posted by FbodFather
My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors......
........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!
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Old 07-17-2018, 01:38 PM   #22
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...Five years ago hybrid, all electric vehicles, weren't in the conversation much...?

Now?...I would think EVs take a lot of "pressure" off meeting CAFE goals...?

I recall hearing Tesla and Musk are making a ton of money selling "credits"...??
Maybe not....Not sure....
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Old 07-17-2018, 08:54 PM   #23
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Cafe means brown in spanish. Shit is brown too. End thread. Lol
Buena esa
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Old 07-17-2018, 09:00 PM   #24
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It's bull$hit. That's what it is.
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:23 PM   #25
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...Five years ago hybrid, all electric vehicles, weren't in the conversation much...?
This is where I have to be careful. I’ve been immersed in the world of hybrids, EVs, Fuel Cells, and fuel economy technologies so long that whenstuff shows up on the street, it feels old to me. As an example, the Porsche Taycan battery electric sedan will be introduced as an upcoming production vehicle later this year. I’ve been following it since Porsche showed the Mission E concept at the 2015 Frankfurt Auto Show. When it lands, it’ll seem “old” to me. I have to remember that most people still have no clue it’s coming. Or more relevant to this forum, there will be a Porsche 911 plug-in hybrid in the next gen.

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Now?...I would think EVs take a lot of "pressure" off meeting CAFE goals...?
They are more targeted to helping relieve the CO2 targets each automaker has to meet. They will, of course, average into the overall CAFE, but the credit scheme is more based on CO2 and other emissions reduction issues (environmental air quality vs fuel economy)

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I recall hearing Tesla and Musk are making a ton of money selling "credits"...??
Maybe not....Not sure....
Yup. I said that. Tesla earns credits with every electric vehicle they sell, but since they don’t make or sell vehicles with ICE, they never have the opportunity to use the credits themselves. So they are able to sell them on the open market. Companies that don’t make and sell enough hybrids, fuel cells, or EVs can buy credits from Tesla or other automakers to make up their shortfall.
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:07 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
I had completely forgot I had posted this 5 years ago:


Well, I pretty much nailed it on the trucks. Within about a year, every half ton from the domestics is going to have a diesel -plus the midsizers from GM, and the '5/8 ton' Nissan Titan XD.



Not so right on the SUVs though. They're still looking pretty rare.
We have a diesel SUV (MB ML350 BLuetec). One of my favourite vehicles to drive (incredible fuel mileage), and can switch from comfort to sport mode though not as sophisticated as the new Corvettes and Camaros.

Dieselgate killed the segment for cars and SUVs powered by diesel. Even though MB was never threatened with a suit, they pulled all their diesel offerings in NA at the beginning of 2017. Volvo did as well, and obviously any VW related brands.

Plan on keeping ours as long as possible (until it becomes a money pit). Plenty of these SUVs into the 300,000+ mile range and we only have around 62,000 on our 2014.
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Old 07-19-2018, 11:05 AM   #27
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Diesel is perfect for long trips. Just have to make sure you can find it in out of the way locations away from the highways. Had that once. Shame people in the US are so diesel averse.
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Old 07-24-2018, 12:10 PM   #28
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Assuming changes to CAFE are possible and eliminating it is impossible:

Would it be preferable to have a softened federal version of California's % EV mandate, say for 50+ mpg vehicles? Any additional high-mpg vehicle sales can be credited and sold to those that miss the mandate percentage.

Maybe this way, most of the auto market can be less disturbed. And the footprint rules can go away?
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