Amp Recommendations?

[Moriartii]

Well I am curious as it would seem if you have the volume turned down you are underpowering the speaker/sub so wouldnt speakers/sub blow all the time? That typically isnt the case sooooo......

Like I say I am new to this so it still seems like voodoo in a box.
Cheers
K

[mrray13]

Originally Posted by shevyman

i have also called around talk to techs asking same qustion on how to choose an amp.

i told the tech one day the amp i had and the sub and he mentioned under powering a sub is not good for it. now i am sorry i can not answer this the proper way cause since then i have stuck with maps with more power then my subs. and cause i forgot his reason. but i was told by a few people also.

well here for example. you have a 1000watt amp pushing a 800 watt sub and you have it hooked up to 12guage wire i am talking speaker wire and earth and ground wire. if you can not send the power to the amp you will over heat it cause its trying to hard to pull in the power which will also cause bad sound. so i take it its the same with the sub, it is asking for more power but the amp wont give it so it will struggle and sound like crap and wear out the sub. also could hurt the amp

also another guy posted about the signal to noise ratio. also is another thing i forgot and yes does make a big deal.

A sub will not ask for power. It presents a load to the amp, which is taking DC current, and AC voltage( the music) and creating stepping it up and passing it along to the sub. That is extremely general, and in no way reflects everything going on.

S/N ratio in subwoofers is not at all that important. You will not hear the difference between 0.07% and 1%, and I'll put money on that. In the higher frequency ranges, it becomes more of an issue, as distortion is easier to detect. Anyone who says different is full of shit.

Originally Posted by shevyman

Underpowering a speaker is likely to damage the voice coil due to the excess heat created by distortion. This distortion, called clipping, is created when the amp is not able to supply the power demand when the volume is turned up. If you turn the volume up very high without the power to back it up, you'll end up clipping the signal coming out of the amp. The speaker will try to reproduce this clipped signal, and if played under these circumstances for any length of time, the speaker will not last very long.

There is a mis-conception that if you're not giving the speaker as much power as it can handle you won't blow it, but that simply is not the case. The only way to really address this problem is to replace your speaker for one with a lower power rating, and a higher SPL rating, or replace your amp with one that better matches the speaker's power handling capability. An alternative to replacing the equipment is to simply keep your volume turned down!

Make certain that power and ground wiring for the amplifier is sufficient to deliver adequate current to the amp. Proper wire gauge and clean connections are critical for strong performance.

Okay, if clipping will kill a stronger subwoofer, what will it do to a weaker one? Think about what you just typed. If I send 400 clipped watts, about the same power as 800 non clipped watts, to a 100wrms sub, you seriously think it'll kill it? Now send that same 400 clipped watts to a 400wrms sub. That 400wrms sub is now seeing 800 watts, while the amp is clipping. Which sub is more likely to survive?

Clipping will not kill a sub if it is still within it's normal power handling capabilities. Example, a typical 1000wrms sub is capable of 2000rms peak power handling, as a 400wrms sub is capable of 800 peak power handling. So even if you crank the gains, and clip the hell out of an amp, if the sub is of correct power handling and in the right enclosure (which will affect power handling), the sub will live.

In short, the only way clipping can damage a sub is if the clipping surpasses the subwoofers normal power handling. One other side note to clipping is loss of output. Since the amp is byond producing power, it can cause compression issues, and that results in output loss, or no gain.

Originally Posted by Moriartii

Shevyman-
I think you may be a tad bit off in your reasoning. Now I will preface this by saying I am new to car audio so I am not trying to start an arguement so please dont take it as such.
That being said the reason I believe you are slightly incorrect is, a speaker or sub make no such request or demand so it doesnt care what is being sent to it. I believe the rms rating on a sub or speaker is the continous rating it can handle and maintain cooling and other parameters. Obviously it can go higher for short amount of time for peak but then it begins to heat up which is what causes issues.

At the same time I believe a speaker or sub does need a minimum wattage to get the motor moving since, if I remember correctly, there is a magnet in there and the field excitement is what gets thing going.

Now regarding clipping, I believe that has more to do with your amp versus the speaker or woofer since the clipping causes issues with the sine wave and subsequent output through the amp. Since the signal is clipped the output is not smooth from the amp so the speaker or woofer has to work harder to keep up with the output from the amp which causes heat. This heat is what causes the speaker or woofer to become damaged.

Example, running my car on a dyno, I accelerate smoothly throught the powerband to where I need to be versus accelerating, letting off accelerating letting off accelerating letting off. The latter is going to create more heat even though I am technically doing the same thing.

I hope that makes sense in what I am thinking?

Cheers
K

You are correct, the subs rms rating is what the subwoofer can handle mechanically and thermally, in a free air situation. Enclosure design will affect the performance of the subwoofer by, in essence, changing how effiecient it is. A smaller enclosure can aide in power handling, but requires more power to achieve similar output from a larger enclosure, although the larger one can lessen the amount of power a sub can handle.


I've underdriven and overdriven speakers for years, the only time I've damaged a sub is by overdriving it. With responsible gain setting, neither one is an issue. However, if one hasn't achieved the desired amount of output from their current setup, adding power is the most effective way, to a point, of gaining output. Sensible gain control, it's not a volume knob, is a most for any equipment to last.

[mrray13]

Originally Posted by LS3SSRS

you know, years ago i blew a couple subs by underpowering them. i blew 2 alpine type s 12's at slightly different times. i had them replaced, and they blew again lol the voicecoils were burnt up

so shevyman, you are spot on in my case.

So you were overdriving them, causing them to overheat and die. This is user error in just about every case and can be prevented. Also, subs, any speaker, will let you know when you are doing this because they stink. They put off a very strong burnt odor, and if one ignores this, you get what happened to you.

Underpowering them didn't destroy them, other driving them did. Chances are you would have done this with more power as well. Not trying to be an ass, just explaining what I think happened based upon my years of experience doing this work. Overpowering a sub will burn a coil, just like overdriving them will. You exceeded the subs thermal power handling and they bit the dust due to it.

[LS3SSRS]

Originally Posted by mrray13

So you were overdriving them, causing them to overheat and die. This is user error in just about every case and can be prevented. Also, subs, any speaker, will let you know when you are doing this because they stink. They put off a very strong burnt odor, and if one ignores this, you get what happened to you.

Underpowering them didn't destroy them, other driving them did. Chances are you would have done this with more power as well. Not trying to be an ass, just explaining what I think happened based upon my years of experience doing this work. Overpowering a sub will burn a coil, just like overdriving them will. You exceeded the subs thermal power handling and they bit the dust due to it.

yep, lol it was my first system so almost guaranteed i set the gains wrong.

[The 2010 Sin]

Originally Posted by Moriartii

Well I am curious as it would seem if you have the volume turned down you are underpowering the speaker/sub so wouldnt speakers/sub blow all the time? That typically isnt the case sooooo......

Like I say I am new to this so it still seems like voodoo in a box.
Cheers
K

Just because the volume is down doesnt mean it is underpowering a speaker.. hard to explain to where it makes sense in common terminology.

"underpowering" a speaker is when you peak out an amplifier into clipping when the power isnt sufficient enough to drive the speaker to proper RMS settings... Low volume has nothing to do with underpowering.

[shevyman]

well we all experience different things.

i found the second post up on a website as for an answer. i bet if we do more research you can find more answers to your question.

i have experienced speakers going out running the wrong amps, i have amps overload cause the sub asked for more power.

i guess it all comes down to like a few people have said. as long as the amp is putting out the rms that the speaker requires then you should be fine.

[black_on_black]

what is a good signal to noise ratio do you want it to be higher or lower and do the overally number besides the ratio itself determine anything?

[mrray13]

Originally Posted by LS3SSRS

yep, lol it was my first system so almost guaranteed i set the gains wrong.

Lol, we've all been there bro!!!

Originally Posted by shevyman

i have amps overload cause the sub asked for more power.

.

Subs, nor speakers, will ask for more power. More then likely you wired up the wrong impedence subs, and attempted to draw more power then the amp was designed to produce.

Subs, in and of themselves, will not, can not, ask for power. They are passive objects, with an electrical motor that relies on a seperate power source to supply voltage to make them move.

[cdigiovanni]

when it comes to amps you have 3 choices

ultra audio
arc audio
zapco

[shevyman]

Originally Posted by cdigiovanni

when it comes to amps you have 3 choices

ultra audio
arc audio
zapco

i will add also Hertz and audison. audison is more for sq. hertz and arc will give you more power but also sound good. i am running a arc amp and i am happy.

plus it all depends on the setup. if you plan on blasting the music then i would go arc hertz. if you want to enjoy your music at low volumes and have that great crystal clear sound, i would go audison.

[mrray13]

Originally Posted by cdigiovanni

when it comes to amps you have 3 choices

ultra audio
arc audio
zapco

Really? Last time I checked there was a crap ton more then that. Some are better performers for far less money.

The beauty of car audio, there really isn't a end all be all brand that can encompass everything. There really is no best of anything in car audio, but there is a lot of really good!

[cdigiovanni]

Originally Posted by mrray13

Really? Last time I checked there was a crap ton more then that. Some are better performers for far less money.

The beauty of car audio, there really isn't a end all be all brand that can encompass everything. There really is no best of anything in car audio, but there is a lot of really good!

im talking quality here! those 3 companies put out solid amps worth the money and backed up with serious warrenties to prove it... not to mention power a sound of course which -overall is the reason these companies are worth their price tags!

BTW ...made in the USA! Not just some "import" amp branded with a logo like most companies that "out-sourse" their amp line to cut cost and quailty for those looking to buy cheaper amp.

any installer worth his OHMS will tell you the same!

my personal favor is

ultra audio
ultrasubs.com

[Racer-X]

Originally Posted by cdigiovanni

im talking quality here! those 3 companies put out solid amps worth the money and backed up with serious warrenties to prove it... not to mention power a sound of course which -overall is the reason these companies are worth their price tags!

BTW ...made in the USA! Not just some "import" amp branded with a logo like most companies that "out-sourse" their amp line to cut cost and quailty for those looking to buy cheaper amp.

any installer worth his OHMS will tell you the same!

my personal favor is

ultra audio
ultrasubs.com

There is a difference between made in the USA and Assembled in the USA
NOT one of the amps you mentioned are manufactured in the US. ALL of the components are built over seas. Hell, Audison/Hertz is built in italy. it is an Italian company not a US company.

Yes Arc Audio,Ultra, Zapco, Audison and Hertz are great companies. they all have Plus sides and minuses to the products they build. As do most other Manufacturer. (to name a few more... Image Dynamics, Tru Technologies, Focal, Digital Designs, DLS, JL Audio, Rockford Faosgate, Orion, MTX, Kicker... and on and on and on....)

As far as warranties, Arc audio is a standard 1 yr warranty, Ultra is the same, Zapco warranty depends on the product you buy but will be either a 2 or 3 yr if dealer installed.. standard 1 yr on all products if not. Audioson/hertz is 3yr if dealer installed 1 yr if not. (dealer installed meaning it must be an authorized dealer.) there are many companies that offer these type of warranties so they are not doing something out of the ordinary.

I promote Arc, Image Dynamics, Zapco, Hybrid Audio Tech. and Audison/Hertz because my company is a dealer for these brands and this is what WE feel are the best lines available. ( I am also sponsored by Arc and Image so again I chose these brands as I feel they are the best) but there are many great companies. no one single company is the be all end all.

[Racer-X]

Originally Posted by shevyman

i will add also Hertz and audison. audison is more for sq. hertz and arc will give you more power but also sound good. i am running a arc amp and i am happy.

plus it all depends on the setup. if you plan on blasting the music then i would go arc hertz. if you want to enjoy your music at low volumes and have that great crystal clear sound, i would go audison.

I gotta chime in here too...yes Audison in more known for being Sound Q oritented. and Hertz EP is a great budget line... with killer performance for the price. Hertz also has the HP line of amps that are much more high power and great ffor loud, but will run very clean as well.
Audison runs the SRX line as their Starter level amps very nice perfomance and sound quality a little lacking in the power dept. The LRX line has some killer special application amps and they do have much better power numbers with improved SQ then there is the THESIS line... some of the best you could ever buy... but you may need to mortage your home to do so. with amps start in the 2000.00 range on up to 12000.00 this is not an area most people will play. I do like Audison gear a lot but I think it to be a bit over priced for what it is.

Arc has 3 lines of products, the XXD which has fully digital amps that have tons of volume and sound good for a digital amp, very budget oriented. the KS line (Kar Series) which are great amplifiers... on par easily with some of the higher end amps on the market. excellent sound quality and great power.
The SE (or Signature Edition) are some fo the best amps I have used.... even above some Audison (the LRX Series) and more Wallet Friendly than the THESIS amps, but they are still gonna set you back a bit depending on your needs.