How long has your aftermarket cam lasted or not lasted??

[CWI]

The other consideration is that LS lifters are made by either Eaton OR Delphi. If I can find it, there is a picture on one of the LS sites that shows the appearance difference between them. The Delphi has a lot more clean machined look to them than the Eaton. Maybe all these failures are one or the other manufacturers. Would be interesting to find out.

[CFD]

Originally Posted by CWI

Without much evidence that some other failure is letting metal get to the rollers and cause failure, is it possible weak valve springs are allowing the lobes to beat the hell out of the rollers? Has anyone tested their springs after lifter failure to see how much fatigue there is? How much spring rate is left at time of failure?

Without something else being broken first, causing metal into the valve train, is this a reasonable suspicion?

I have suspected the problem to be fatigued valve springs. I did check mine this time around, they are 129lbs on the seat, specs show 144lbs.

[The Blue Ox]

Good Info and Thread OP!!!

[christianchevell]

good Lord people any of you read my posts with the Driven racing Bulletins about how people use too heavy a weight of oil when are engines are designed for 30 weight? And about how failure of the roller to turn due to the oil being to slick due to its having the roller slide not roll...... a reason maybe why the rollers are all being eaten!!! The oil needs to be formulated just right, and yes our cams do need to be broken in!!! And mobil one is the worst on wear tests from amsoil...and in many other catagories and such and heres their independent test results. Here is the info I can put out from my extensive researching here and elsewhere from old posts before I invested thousands of dollars to do my cam at Wongs performance engineering with Driven BR30 break in oil, and now LS30 for life after the two break in oil dumps.

Cam still in use Y/N:Yes
Cam type/brand:TSP comp cam core as there are only a couple makers of cores....
Cam Specs: .639/.623 112 lsa
Cam miles: 500+
Forced induction:no
Power level: 491 h.p. 448 torque
Oil type: LS30 now and forever
Oil Pump: stock melling
Date of cam purchase: like a couple months ago
Valve train upgrades: .675 springs
Bottom end upgrades none

From my builder: yes all oil basically sucks unless you choose the right formulation now and only a few are good enough without ZDDP additive and no telling if it will work good enough with what ever random damn off the shelf oil you choose to use and it better be 30 weight or you starve the upper valve train to death when its cold!!! He was skeptical of having to do a break in and shared the driven racing info with him...he however always used mobil one extended if he chose the oil with a zddp additive always whatever oil chosen when doing a cam as he always added fresh oil and never has had anyone come back with a failed cam. , ( so in effect he was breaking in cams and not even knowing it), I told him to read the amsoil article that mobil one was the worst...He followed my request and dumped my oil like any other cams I have ever installed myself that had to be broken in which was every single one..... And I am a old hot rodder.

Here this is what you should read and everyone should read from what I could find:

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/...-break-in-too/

Roller Cams Need Break-In Too » Driven Racing Oil

Roller Cams Need Break-In Too

By Lake Speed, Certified Lubrication Specialist, Driven Racing Oil

While everyone understands the need for a proper break-in oil for a flat tappet camshaft, many people don’t think about the need to break in a roller cam. Sure, the rings need to be seated in a roller, but won’t any old oil suffice for that?
The answer, according to top engine builders, ring manufacturers and cam grinders, is an emphatic, “No!”
The reason is actually pretty simple. An oil that “wears in” the rings will create a lot of fine metal particulate, and that particulate is a killer for your roller cam. According to Timken, the number one reason for premature roller bearing failure is particulate contamination. An engine creates more particulate wear metal during break in than at any other time. In fact, the “normal” wear metals for a new engine are up to four times higher than after an engine has finished breaking in – hence the term.
So what does this have to do with motor oil? Quite simply, not all break-in oils are the same. Some break-in oils are designed to accelerate the break-in process, and as a result, these oils generate higher levels of wear metal – bad news for your roller bearings.
However, if the oil is friction modified – think too slippery – then the rings won’t seat properly. Striking the right balance is critical.
One such lubricant that strikes the proper balance is Driven BR Break-In Oil, which was formulated specifically to help Joe Gibbs Racing with its engine program.
Mark Cronquist, Chief Engine Builder at Gibbs, explained that the break-in oil had to do two jobs – protect the valve train and not hinder ring seal.
“With a compacted graphite block and tool steel rings, the materials are very hard, so if the oil is too slippery, the rings won’t seat properly,” he said. “We still have a valve train with roller bearings that need protection as well, so the break-in oil features a high anti-wear formulation without friction modifiers to chemically assist the ring sealing. This strategy reduces the amount of wear metals created during break-in, and that protects the roller bearings in the valve train.
Matt Hartford from Total Seal agreed. “High performance ring packs need the right balance of chemical additives in the oil to ensure maximum performance,” he explained. “That is why we worked with Driven to develop our own line of break-in oils. The Driven product is proven to provide the best ring seal while also protecting the valve train. Performance engines typically have roller cams or at least roller rockers, so using the correct break-in oil is critical to keeping the entire engine happy.”
Other aspects of roller cam break-in to consider are the high spring pressures and contact loads the cam, lifters, pushrods and rockers see. While these loads would spell death to a flat tappet cam, the high ZDDP anti-wear package of a break-in oil also protects these components during that critical break-in period.
Think of a break-in oil like a primer. Putting down primer before you paint establishes a uniform coating to build from, and that is exactly what a break-in oil does – it establishes a uniform anti-wear film that provides the foundation for protection. Just like a thick coat of primer smoothes out a surface, a properly formulated break-in oil does the same thing. The protective layer of ZDDP anti-wear film smoothes out the peaks and valleys that comprise microscopic surfaces on the roller wheels and needle bearings.
A smooth surface enables greater load carrying with less fatigue. Think about it. How many pushups can you do on your finger tips compared to on your palms?
The high loads placed on modern roller cam valve trains require the maximum amount of surface area to resist fatigue.
The more aggressive the valve train, the more critical these details become. “It is hard to fall off the bottom of the mountain,” said Brian Reese from COMP Cams. “The more aggressive the valve train is in terms of lift, duration and spring pressure, the less margin of error you have. The little details become critical.”
“We are seeing a trend away from flat tappet engines to avoid the oil issues related to flat tappet cams, but just because you have a roller cam does not mean that it does not have to be broken in properly,” commented Reese. “NASCAR-level engine programs like Joe Gibbs Racing are still doing a 30 minute break-in on their roller cam engines because they have learned the hard way what happens when they don’t.”
Added Mark Cronquist, “The most critical time for any engine is during break-in. It really pays off in durability to spend the extra time on the details during the break-in period. In the long run, that extra investment on the front end really pays dividends down the road.”
Brian Reese summarized it the best. “If you get the break-in wrong with a flat tappet cam, it dies right in front of your face. If you get the break-in wrong with a roller cam, it may not die until several thousand miles down the road, but the problem began at break-in.”

This entry was posted in Tech Articles, Training Center and tagged Driven, Driven Racing Oil, Motor Oil on April 27, 2013 by admin.


the next:
http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/...tech-bulletin/
GM LS Hydraulic Roller Cam Bulletin » Driven Racing Oil

GM LS Hydraulic Roller Cam Bulletin

Attn: GM LS Engine Owners
Re: Hydraulic Roller Cam & Lifter Failures Due To Improper Lubrication
As the marketplace stretches the power levels of the popular GM LS platform (especially in power adder applications), a marked increase is being seen in hydraulic roller cam lobe deterioration, along with lifter wheel and needle bearing failures. The root issue of this problem is a general lack of understanding about the lubrication needs of this engine platform.
Customers often do not consider the need for either a break-in oil or application specific formula due to the fact that their application utilizes a hydraulic roller cam. Since these LS engines are primarily for street/strip use, a typical customer may use a conventional 20W-50 “Racing Oil” or a similar off-the-shelf lubricant. The engines are thus not broken in with specialized break-in oil, meaning that the proper foundation for valve train durability is never established.
As street applications featuring the LS engine are not typically warmed up before driving, the heavy weight oil (such as 20W-50) is slower in flowing to the hydraulic roller lifters. The result is a lack of adequate lubrication. The LS platform pump and oiling system is designed for 5W-30 viscosity grade oil, so using heavier weight oil actually reduces lubrication and often leads to rapid valve train failure.
Driven Racing Oil™ recommends using BR30 Break-In Oil and LS30 Synthetic Street Performance Oil as a two-part solution to this growing problem.
By utilizing the BR30 Break-In Oil, the proper additive foundation will be introduced into the engine. This is accomplished first by breaking in the LS engine for 30 minutes to one hour much like a customer with a flat tappet valve train would. The customer should then drain the oil and change the filter, install a fresh fill of BR30 and continue to break-in the engine for the next 500 miles.
Due to the use of hydraulic lifters in these engines, it is critical that the oil be changed after break-in to remove the metal particulate created during the process. If these small particles are allowed to stay in the oil system for thousands of miles serious damage will occur.
After the break-in steps are complete, it is time to install the LS30 Synthetic Street Performance Oil, which is a properly formulated 5W-30 motor oil designed specifically for GM LS-based engines. The LS30 oil features mPAO synthetic base oil technology that increases High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) bearing oil film thickness, so the oil flows like a 5W-30 but protects like a 15W-40.
This innovative technology enables LS30 to provide the required viscosity for the LS oiling system and deliver the added protection required for higher lift cams and hydraulic roller lifters.
This two-step lubrication process provides the proper viscosity and additive chemistry for the unique requirements of modified GM LS engines with hydraulic roller valve trains. Properly completing this sequence of steps utilizing both the Driven BR30 Break-In Oil and LS30 Synthetic Street Performance Oil will establish the proper anti-wear film in the engine, remove harmful break-in particles and provide excellent ring sealing.

And the amsoil study I cannot paste its PDF:
And is a excellent comparison of synthetics yet I wish it had ZDDP info and better info and such and Driven also in the mix. Yet goes to show the great variance just in between synthetic oils.... many of which if they do not let your roller turn on your lifter your screwed as that's when it eats the cam as the roller slides itself to death!!! the oil requires some grip not just slick...and that's why a 50/50 dexos blend has most likely been more successful in our LS engines than a full synthetic and why when I asked about getting full synthetic at the dealer for a oil change the head mechanic and service manager advised against it and said full synthetic is a waste if its not made right it can actually hurt your engine and the 50/50 can do just fine ,( as the regular natural oil has a lot of elements in it synthetic has to introduce chemically and can help the rollers turn from getting the grip not the slip)... Sure dexos is a standard not just a blend, but for most people who are not obsessed a blend for their car is just fine and gets oil changes for cheaper and that's great for 95% of people, we however are Motor heads face it! We want to protect our investment!!! we try to think we know what is best right...And it can be our car just like any other car can use brand X that worked in our YADA YADA mobile for years...well think again, oils been reformulated to remove the ZDDP almost all gone.........!!!! SO the EPA and the BIG three auto makers want to force old cars off the road if they cannot figure out to additive their oil or choose the right formulation because it sells cars for them and makes repair bills, and it allows Catalytic converters to function better without failure due to the zinc contaminating and ruining the converter!!!! This is our life, and it sucks, Big Government always sucks, I know I work for it.

SO here enough of my rant: the amsoil article once again. And I am not doing this posting for my health I am putting this info out there to help my fellow hot rodders!! As we cannot all be like the fellows on "fast and loud" that eat a cam and have to redo the hertz 67 Shelby mustang engine over just trying to break in the flat tappet cam then switch to BR30 for the oil on the next build!! Yes I can see them use it in the episode wish I could post it here!!!
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g3115.pdf

A Study of SAE 5W-30

Synthetic Motor Oils

Published June 2013

AMSOIL Signature Series Synthetic Motor Oil

Castrol Edge

® with Titanium Fluid Strength Technology®

Lucas Synthetic

Mobil 1

™ Extended Performance

Pennzoil Ultra

™

Petro-Canada SUPREME Synthetic

™

Quaker State Ultimate Durability

™

Red Line High Performance Motor Oil

Royal Purple High Performance Motor Oil

Valvoline SynPower® Full Synthetic Motor O

Overview

While conventional motor oil sales remain flat, synthetic motor oils continue to

demonstrate strong annual growth. Motorists now recognize that synthetics

legitimately improve engine performance, particularly in engines that operate

under severe service. Performance cars and many traditional family vehicles

today leave the factory with synthetic oil installed and recommended as the ser

vice

fill, contributing to synthetics’ increased demand. Oil manufacturers have

responded. Many now formulate multiple synthetic motor oils, often led by a

flagship product that represents each company’s most advanced technology.

Objective

Compare the performance in laboratory tests and cost-effectiveness of AMSOIL Signature Series Synthetic

Motor Oil to several passenger-car/light-truck synthetic motor oils widely considered by marketers and consumers

to be the best available.

Methodology

Laboratory bench testing conducted in accordance with American Society of Testing and Materials (ASTM)

procedures examined several important areas of motor oil performance, including resistance to deposit

formation, wear protection, high-temperature stability, resistance to acid formation and cold-temperature

performance. Bench tests are used widely to differentiate between formulations.

Note:

Test results published in this Technical Study describe and represent properties of oils that were

acquired on the dates listed in Table 1 (page 3). Results do not apply to any subsequent reformulations of

such oils or to new oils introduced after completion of testing. All oils were available to consumers at the time

of purchase. Testing was completed February 2013 by an independent, third-party lab. Formulations were

coded to eliminate bias, and samples were tested in random order. An appropriate number of trials of each oil

were run to produce results at the 95 percent confidence level when compared to Signature Series Synthetic

Motor Oil.

1

ASTM Tests Performed

Each oil was subjected to the following ASTM test methodologies:

• Four-Ball Wear Test (ASTM D4172 Mod.)

• Total Base Number (ASTM D2896)

• Cold Cranking Viscosity (ASTM D5293)

• Thermo-Oxidation Engine Oil Simulation Test (TEOST, ASTM D6335)

• NOACK Volatility Test (ASTM D5800)

1

The 95 percent confidence level only applies when comparing AMSOIL Signature Series 5W-30 Synthetic Motor

Oil to the other oils. The 95 percent confidence level does not apply when comparing the other oils to one another.

Candidate Oils

The following 10 synthetic motor oils were selected. All oils were 5W-30 and are recommended for the

American Petroleum Institute (API) SN and International Lubricants Standardization and Approval Committee

(ILSAC) GF-5 performance specifications.

Table 1

Motor Oil Acquired Batch Code

API/ILSAC

Specification

AMSOIL Signature Series

Synthetic Motor Oil

Nov. 2012 15455 298

SN/GF-5

Castrol Edge with Titanium Fluid

Strength Technology

Dec. 2012 A1229220921 H1

SN/GF-5

Lucas Synthetic

Nov. 2012 12206 I512:33 SN/GF-5

Mobil 1 Extended Performance

Dec. 2012 11012L04A 15 5888 SN/GF-5

Pennzoil Ultra

Dec. 2012 10413471 U001 22MAR12 0701 1 SN/GF-5

Petro-Canada SUPREME Synthetic

Dec. 2012 121019LX 011137 122163*

121019LX 011154 122163*

121019LX 011186 122163*

SN/GF-5

Quaker State Ultimate Durability

Dec. 2012 10492378 U002-1 11OCT12 15:13 SN/GF-5

Red Line High Performance Motor Oil

Nov. 2012 62286 9343P-003442 SN/GF-5

Royal Purple High Performance Motor Oil

Dec. 2012 ICPR33A18201 SN/GF-5

Valvoline SynPower Full Synthetic

Motor Oil

Dec. 2012 J2212C5 1949 SN/GF-5

Four-Ball Wear Test (ASTM D4172 Mod.)

According to the ASTM, the Four-Ball Wear Test “can be used to determine the relative wear preventive

properties of lubricating fluids in sliding contact under the prescribed test conditions. No attempt has been

made to correlate this test with balls in rolling contact. The user of this test method should determine to his

own satisfaction whether results of this test procedure correlate with field performance or other bench test

machines.”

1

Although not widely used as an engine oil test, the Four-Ball Wear Test provides a means of comparing

relative wear-protection properties of lubricating oils. To better differentiate between lubricants, the severity of

the test was increased with higher rpm and temperature (the test standard allows for running the test under

modified parameters). The size of the scar as a result of the test indicates the level of wear protection the

lubricant provides.

Results

Four-Ball Wear Test results indicate significant differences in relative wear protection between oils. The

top four performers limited wear scars to under 0.40 mm. AMSOIL Signature Series Synthetic Motor Oil

demonstrated the best wear protection in the Four-Ball Wear Test.

0.0

0.2

0.4

0.6

0.8

1.0

1.2

1.4

1.6

1.8

Four-Ball Wear Test (ASTM D4172 Mod.)

1,800 rpm, 150ºC, 40 kg. 1 hour

Performed by independent, third-party lab February 2013.

The smaller the wear scar, the better the performance in the test.

Average Scar Diameter (mm)

AMSOIL Signature Series

Lucas Synthetic

Valvoline SynPower

Royal Purple High Performance

Pennzoil Ultra

Red Line High Performance

Quaker State Ultimate Durability

Petro-Canada

SUPREME Synthetic

Castrol Edge with Titanium

Fluid Strength Technology

Mobil 1

And that's where I cannot copy the charts.....so look it up and good luck to you, and remember I used 7.425 pushrods for my cam and have Zero lifter noise as per my builders recommendations, others may have used 7.400 which is more inline with a l99 engine from what I understand compared to a ls3 sure its a small difference....but they add up! And without proper break in even with a good oil that's not all that your cam is waiting to degrade, and new springs need to be heated and cooled in their break in, and rechecked over time especially if the engine is used in racing or even as a daily like mine that's flogged at least around 25000 mile intervals to check them cause if they fail and you bite a piston with a valve,( which I have low piston to valve clearance as it is now), your looking at a total rebuild or worse a new engine. And timing chains wear... not stretch, the little roller tube portion on the chain from gear contact and need to be checked over time also...... Along with the ls3 timing chain tensioner as it may just fall apart if you do not have the ls2 dampener for the change.

God Bless the USA and Chevrolet

[MValdez17]

christianchevell



Thank you for the good info. I just purchased 16 Quarts of BR30.

With a new cam, new lifters, and new oil pump. I would rather be safe then sorry, and whatever I can do to avoid this happening again in the future.

[JCunningham]

And Comp Cams told me the same thing as christianchevell. http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/showthread.php?p=56611

[Infern0]

[rberns]

So is it safe to dyno tune after a cam swap when using the break in oil BR30?

[JCunningham]

ya they break in motors on the dyno with it.

[JustJohn]

Not many miles but figured I'd post up anyway.

Cam still in use Y/N: Yes
Cam type/brand: Comp Cams
Cam Specs: Night Fury
Cam miles: 3,500
Forced induction: No
Power level: 483 RWHP
Oil type: LS30
Oil Pump: HV Melling Oil Pump
Date of cam purchase: Sept 2013
Valve train upgrades: PAC springs, Comp Cams trunion upgrade, Melling oil pump, CR-5 chain.
Bottom end upgrades: None

Has been great so far, VERY happy with this upgrade though now I'm wanting more hp.

[motogplvr]

Is anyone running an aftermarket single bolt camshaft?

[rberns]

Originally Posted by motogplvr

Is anyone running an aftermarket single bolt camshaft?

I believe the VVT does on the L99. Talk to Rhino79 on the forums.

[376LS3]

Gotta redo my submission since mine just crapped out:

Cam still in use Y/N: No
Cam type/brand: Comp Cams (Night Fury)
Cam Specs: 231/242
Cam miles:9500
Forced induction: No
Power level: 432whp[
Oil type: VR1 SAE30 for most of the time, then switched to Amsoil when I couldnt find VR1
Oil Pump: Stock, now dead. Putting Melling 1025 in.
Date of cam purchase: 7/2012
Valve train upgrades: PAC1208
Bottom end upgrades: None

10 lobes affected. These shots are all different lobes. Just bought a Cam Motion cam. Hope to have better results!

[That_Guy]

Originally Posted by 376LS3

Gotta redo my submission since mine just crapped out:

Cam still in use Y/N: No
Cam type/brand: Comp Cams (Night Fury)
Cam Specs: 231/242
Cam miles:9500
Forced induction: No
Power level: 432whp[
Oil type: VR1 SAE30 for most of the time, then switched to Amsoil when I couldnt find VR1
Oil Pump: Stock, now dead. Putting Melling 1025 in.
Date of cam purchase: 7/2012
Valve train upgrades: PAC1208
Bottom end upgrades: None

10 lobes affected. These shots are all different lobes. Just bought a Cam Motion cam. Hope to have better results!

Did you finally check the grind number to see if that's the correct cam?