[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

My guess is that the GT350 will wrap up in the next model year. At that point you will see the 480 hp Bullitt motor on the standard GT and the coolers on the PP2. The 500 will then appear but the GT will not be a threat. Look for a Mach1 package with another bump in HP as well.

That would be a smart move on Ford's part. If they did that, then even tho it is still late in the game, I would start to have some respect for them.

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I think the Tremec should replace the MT82 right now. There have been versions of it that are better than others but honestly no version is as good as the Tremec. Just scrap it already Ford. I also see a trackpack version of the PP2 coming with coolers.

The Bullitt engine being the base GT engine sounds like a no brainer but what will the 2020 SS and Chally have by then?

How much would the price of the Mustang jump by if they did all this tho? I could see it getting to the point where they'll start losing their fan base due to price. If they stick with the MT-82, I bet it will be due to money.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Well the Challenger engine is a mystery, the Camaro will still plod along with the LT1. When there was no update done at the refresh I think the LT1 will soldier on until the 6th gen is finished. I don't see them replacing it like GM did with the C6 when it from LS2 to LS3

I would like to see FCA scrap the 5.7 and just offer the 6.4, Hellcat engine, and the Redeye engine. At this point there really is no reason for them to even make the 5.7. It doesn't have enough displacement or power or even potential to be competitive. You can't even mod them engines with boost safely. There's no point. Unless they keep it as an option for people who just want a great sounding V8 and drop the price substantially.

Originally Posted by Mountain

GM, I think, has taken the OHV/push-rod engine about as far as it can go, with mass production business reason. Think about the displacement: increased displacement is needed to get the needed competitive power in OHV form. Going forward, you need more fuel efficiency, similar/lower weight, tight packaging, and more power. The options to increase power are, from a staying NA OHV perspective, increased displacement, increased RPM and increased efficiency. They are already very near or at the ceiling for RPM, efficiency and displacement before stepping into an area that becomes either unreasonable for business or negativly effects another aspect.

The Gen3 Coyote seems to have reliability issues and, of course, the Voodoo. I blame the spray bores (suspect cheapened-out, high-volume processing) and vibrations in those cases. But the Gen1 and Gen2 Coyotes and Roadrunner were very good engines.

The OHV engine is nowhere even close to being maxed. GM has soo many options to choose from. Plus look at the fact that the most powerful engines in the fastest cars that are affordable by most people are pushrod. GM has the 755 hp LT5, Dodge has the 707 HP Hellcat, the 797 HP Redeye, and the 808-840 HP Demon. And GM isn't even near the max of where they can take compression on their NA engines nor are they using DFI like Ford is. I could see GM pushing the 6.2 to 500 or more HP. And they could push a 7.0 higher than that. Or drop a 454 small block. They have tons of options.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The OHV engine is nowhere even close to being maxed. GM has soo many options to choose from. Plus look at the fact that the most powerful engines in the fastest cars that are affordable by most people are pushrod. GM has the 755 hp LT5, Dodge has the 707 HP Hellcat, the 797 HP Redeye, and the 808-840 HP Demon. And GM isn't even near the max of where they can take compression on their NA engines nor are they using DFI like Ford is. I could see GM pushing the 6.2 to 500 or more HP. And they could push a 7.0 higher than that. Or drop a 454 small block. They have tons of options.

What are the options, outside the ones I listed, which soil the business case?

The LT1 is 11.5:1. They can go 12.0-12.5 in the current environment.

The LT1 uses DI... or are you saying “dual” fuel injection? There isn’t a ton of power there, it’s more about little smoothing of the power curve and helping valve not get dirty. Plus it adds cost and complexity. Possible though.

[shaffe]

The only thing I will disagree with Blaq is that it does seem with EPA and emissions standards I think they have just about taken the NA OHV engine as far as they can. Yeah they can make more power, but can they do it while still meeting emissions standards? team Corvette tried going NA for the Z06, and couldn't make the power they wanted while passing emissions, which is why we have the LT4.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by shaffe

The only thing I will disagree with Blaq is that it does seem with EPA and emissions standards I think they have just about taken the NA OHV engine as far as they can. Yeah they can make more power, but can they do it while still meeting emissions standards? team Corvette tried going NA for the Z06, and couldn't make the power they wanted while passing emissions, which is why we have the LT4.

This is in the realm of what I’m getting at with my blanket of “business reason”.

Weight, packaging space, fuel economy, durability and costs.

Bump the LT1 to 12:1 and add dual-injection: 580 cHP on gasoline. Bumped redline will add power but reduce fuel economy and lower potential reliability (with OEM $ components). E85? OK, 500+ cHP but reduced fuel economy.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

The only thing I will disagree with Blaq is that it does seem with EPA and emissions standards I think they have just about taken the NA OHV engine as far as they can. Yeah they can make more power, but can they do it while still meeting emissions standards? team Corvette tried going NA for the Z06, and couldn't make the power they wanted while passing emissions, which is why we have the LT4.

The Corvette team had a goal of more than 600 HP for that Z06 and the development took place (?) 6-8 years ago. If we’re talking about the 6.2L, direct injected Chevy base engine platform, I don’t think 455 HP / 455 lb-ft the limit.

The Dodge 6.4L makes 75.8 HP/L and it isn’t direct injected. That power level applied to 6.2L gives 470 HP.

Packaging? The LT engine is small and light with a lower center of gravity than a OHC.

[BlaqWhole]

So you guys really think GM is struggling to make power and Ford is just having a breeze of a time? LOL! Let's look at things logically. The C7 Z06 was designed years and years ago. Since then we have seen new technology being used that wasn't available at that time. So that alone is enough to know that GM could easily increase power. As mentioned already, look at what Dodge is doing without even resorting to DFI. And they aren't even using as much compression as the Camaro and the Mustang uses. And considering the size of the pushrod engine, they could easily increase displacement well beyond 6.2 liters without increasing physical size or at least without much of a size increase. Look at all the engines that came before the LT1 that weren't even using DFI and were using just about the same compression as the LT1. From where I sit, I highly doubt GM will have a problem increasing NA performance.

Now Ford on the other hand, we have already seen engine and DT vibrational issues, oil consumption issues, and other problems with their high RPM engines. Even the 2 Gen Coyote was having oiling issues with the stock OPGs when increasing RPMs to over 7500. What engine and DT related issues have we seen with the Camaro? Because I don't recall any.The problem with Ford's DOHC engines is that whenever Ford makes more power with them it comes from spinning the engine higher and higher. And with that comes driveability and longevity issues. And even if they can spin it, at some point you lose more and more low end torque and HP. The Gen 2 Coyotes didn't start making power until 4K RPMs. So how much more do you think Ford will really be able to squeeze out of the 5.0 while keeping the engine safe and reliable?

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So you guys really think GM is struggling to make power and Ford is just having a breeze of a time? LOL! Let's look at things logically. The C7 Z06 was designed years and years ago. Since then we have seen new technology being used that wasn't available at that time. So that alone is enough to know that GM could easily increase power. As mentioned already, look at what Dodge is doing without even resorting to DFI. And they aren't even using as much compression as the Camaro and the Mustang uses. And considering the size of the pushrod engine, they could easily increase displacement well beyond 6.2 liters without increasing physical size or at least without much of a size increase. Look at all the engines that came before the LT1 that weren't even using DFI and were using just about the same compression as the LT1. From where I sit, I highly doubt GM will have a problem increasing NA performance.

Now Ford on the other hand, we have already seen engine and DT vibrational issues, oil consumption issues, and other problems with their high RPM engines. Even the 2 Gen Coyote was having oiling issues with the stock OPGs when increasing RPMs to over 7500. What engine and DT related issues have we seen with the Camaro? Because I don't recall any.The problem with Ford's DOHC engines is that whenever Ford makes more power with them it comes from spinning the engine higher and higher. And with that comes driveability and longevity issues. And even if they can spin it, at some point you lose more and more low end torque and HP. The Gen 2 Coyotes didn't start making power until 4K RPMs. So how much more do you think Ford will really be able to squeeze out of the 5.0 while keeping the engine safe and reliable?

No... not the point.

Business case...

Regulations.

Design goals.

Thorough validation.

Cost.





We are talking about the OEM and mass production perspective, not a supercar/halo-car or specialty/performance shop perspective.

The argument is not what you out-right can do, bar no or little restrictions...


What is Dodge doing? Superchargine eveything. A look at their NA engines:

The 5.7L Hemi: VVT, PFI, OHV, 10.5:1 374HP&410 teq
The 6.1L Hemi: PFI, OHV, 10.3:1 425HP&420trq
The 392/6.4L Hemi: VVT, PFI, OHV, 10.9:1 475/485HP&475trq
The LT1/6.2L: VVT, DI, OHV, 11.5:1 460HP&460trq

The LT1 has issue with the AFM lifters collapsing, causing bent pusheods, broken springs, broken valves and potential further damage. Plus, the lifters are heavy. The OEM valve springs are optimized-out for what the LT1 does, no more.



Question: Take the LT1 and the Camaro. What do you propose Chevy do to make more power while retaining or increasing fuel economy, all while staying NA, staying reliable and not costing a bunch?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Mountain

What are the options, outside the ones I listed, which soil the business case?

The LT1 is 11.5:1. They can go 12.0-12.5 in the current environment.

The LT1 uses DI... or are you saying “dual” fuel injection? There isn’t a ton of power there, it’s more about little smoothing of the power curve and helping valve not get dirty. Plus it adds cost and complexity. Possible though.

Originally Posted by shaffe

The only thing I will disagree with Blaq is that it does seem with EPA and emissions standards I think they have just about taken the NA OHV engine as far as they can. Yeah they can make more power, but can they do it while still meeting emissions standards? team Corvette tried going NA for the Z06, and couldn't make the power they wanted while passing emissions, which is why we have the LT4.

Originally Posted by hotlap

The Corvette team had a goal of more than 600 HP for that Z06 and the development took place (?) 6-8 years ago. If we’re talking about the 6.2L, direct injected Chevy base engine platform, I don’t think 455 HP / 455 lb-ft the limit.

The Dodge 6.4L makes 75.8 HP/L and it isn’t direct injected. That power level applied to 6.2L gives 470 HP.

Packaging? The LT engine is small and light with a lower center of gravity than a OHC.

OHV engines have the same fuel economy and emissions control technologies available to them that OHC engines have. In some cases the physical manifestation is different because one cam vs four cams, but essentially the same technologies. Things that the small block could implement that have not been implemented yet include

• dual fuel injection
• Cooled EGR
• low voltage electrification (12V or 48V hybrid)

For the most part, dual fuel injection is less about power and more about emissions. At low load, DI produces soot. Not surprising since DI is a technology borrowed from diesel and what is diesel's biggest problem? Soot. The point of dual fuel is it runs on port fuel injection at low loads to reduce soot then adds in DI when power is needed. There are a couple exotic applications (McLaren, I think) that have dual fuel because at the top end, DI alone cannot deliver enough fuel, so adding port increases the volume.

Water cooling could be used for either cleaner emissions or more power, depending on how it is integrated. There is also the potential to progress with cylinder deactivation (including move from AFM to DFM). There is probably a little more flexibility in multi-stage turbocharging than in supercharging, but LT4 and LT5 are doing just fine with supercharging, so it's hard to say if they want to or will flip that switch.

And if all that doesn't result in a powerful engine meeting EPA requirements, there's always the full, high voltage hybrid option. Mustang is already going that route. No reason Camaro couldn't do the same.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The Corvette team had a goal of more than 600 HP for that Z06 and the development took place (?) 6-8 years ago. If we’re talking about the 6.2L, direct injected Chevy base engine platform, I don’t think 455 HP / 455 lb-ft the limit.

The Dodge 6.4L makes 75.8 HP/L and it isn’t direct injected. That power level applied to 6.2L gives 470 HP.

Packaging? The LT engine is small and light with a lower center of gravity than a OHC.

True but IIRC team Corvette was also trying to do that with a new 7.0L I think? Not 100% sure on that. My point wasn't that the LT1 is tapped out, I think there is definitely still room on the table. I just don't know how much more is left though.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So you guys really think GM is struggling to make power and Ford is just having a breeze of a time? LOL! Let's look at things logically. The C7 Z06 was designed years and years ago. Since then we have seen new technology being used that wasn't available at that time. So that alone is enough to know that GM could easily increase power. As mentioned already, look at what Dodge is doing without even resorting to DFI. And they aren't even using as much compression as the Camaro and the Mustang uses. And considering the size of the pushrod engine, they could easily increase displacement well beyond 6.2 liters without increasing physical size or at least without much of a size increase. Look at all the engines that came before the LT1 that weren't even using DFI and were using just about the same compression as the LT1. From where I sit, I highly doubt GM will have a problem increasing NA performance.

Now Ford on the other hand, we have already seen engine and DT vibrational issues, oil consumption issues, and other problems with their high RPM engines. Even the 2 Gen Coyote was having oiling issues with the stock OPGs when increasing RPMs to over 7500. What engine and DT related issues have we seen with the Camaro? Because I don't recall any.The problem with Ford's DOHC engines is that whenever Ford makes more power with them it comes from spinning the engine higher and higher. And with that comes driveability and longevity issues. And even if they can spin it, at some point you lose more and more low end torque and HP. The Gen 2 Coyotes didn't start making power until 4K RPMs. So how much more do you think Ford will really be able to squeeze out of the 5.0 while keeping the engine safe and reliable?

I wasn't trying to make this an OHV OHC debate. I was just saying that I think the days of big NA OHV engines are just about done. I think there is still some room left, but I don't know how much they could do. Maybe 500, maybe 525 in the "regular V8" I don't think anything more than that is possible emissions wise. Hopefully someone smarter than me can chime in but I believe to start getting that kind of power most likely have to increase displacement and larger displacement has a harder time passing cold start emissions testing.

I could be 100% wrong on that though, but I believe that is the problem Corvette ran into when trying to make an NA power plant for the Z06.

And agian not saying switching to OHC makes it all of a sudden possible. Just I think NA power levels are just about tapped out.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Mountain

No... not the point.

Business case...

Regulations.

Design goals.

Thorough validation.

Cost.





We are talking about the OEM and mass production perspective, not a supercar/halo-car or specialty/performance shop perspective.

The argument is not what you out-right can do, bar no or little restrictions...


What is Dodge doing? Superchargine eveything. A look at their NA engines:

The 5.7L Hemi: VVT, PFI, OHV, 10.5:1 374HP&410 teq
The 6.1L Hemi: PFI, OHV, 10.3:1 425HP&420trq
The 392/6.4L Hemi: VVT, PFI, OHV, 10.9:1 475/485HP&475trq
The LT1/6.2L: VVT, DI, OHV, 11.5:1 460HP&460trq

The LT1 has issue with the AFM lifters collapsing, causing bent pusheods, broken springs, broken valves and potential further damage. Plus, the lifters are heavy. The OEM valve springs are optimized-out for what the LT1 does, no more.



Question: Take the LT1 and the Camaro. What do you propose Chevy do to make more power while retaining or increasing fuel economy, all while staying NA, staying reliable and not costing a bunch?

What I'm confused about is what makes you think GM is going to have such a hard time and FOrd won't. Or rather, I'm curious as to why you think the OHV engines are more limited when the exact opposite is proven to be true. Everything you said could be reversed and make just as much sense. As to what you said about all the engines...

5.7 Hemi - I think we all could safely agree that Dodge is not trying to make the 5.7 competitive. So I'm not even gonna consider this in any realistic debate. It doesn't have anything it would need to be competitive and FCA doesn't care enough about that engine to change things. It brings them money and it's an attractive package for someone who wants a classic themed V8 Mopar.

6.1 Hemi - Again, another engine that isn't utilizing any of the technologies to make it better and more efficient. Yet it was still in range while being an attractive package for their customer base.

6.4 Hemi - Look at everything Ford had to do to get to 480 HP and this engine is making more than that and more torque with less tech. The only NA engine that Ford has that surpasses it is the Voodoo.

Originally Posted by Mountain

The LT1 has issue with the AFM lifters collapsing, causing bent pusheods, broken springs, broken valves and potential further damage. Plus, the lifters are heavy. The OEM valve springs are optimized-out for what the LT1 does, no more.

I have not heard any of this. At least not to the extent you're making it out to be. So I'm not sure I even need to address this any further.

Originally Posted by Mountain

Question: Take the LT1 and the Camaro. What do you propose Chevy do to make more power while retaining or increasing fuel economy, all while staying NA, staying reliable and not costing a bunch?

I could ask you the exact same question about the DOHC Ford engines.

So that is what I'm getting at. Your observations don't seem to be based on anything substantial. GM pushed the LT1 to 455 and left it alone. More than likely they started working on the next engine long ago. The LT1 was powerful and impressive enough that they could get away with leaving it alone for this long and not having to worry. Ford pushed the Coyote to 460 and then the Bullitt to 480. For all we know that 480 number could be all marketing. But it is still, as you mentioned, a specialty version of the Mustang. So is the Shelby. So your argument falls flat because you are basing it off of a 460 HP Coyote engine that is utilizing more tech vs a 455 HP LT1 engine that isn't using all the tech available. That 5 HP difference is not even significant enough to stir a debate.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

What I'm confused about is what makes you think GM is going to have such a hard time and FOrd won't. Or rather, I'm curious as to why you think the OHV engines are more limited when the exact opposite is proven to be true. Everything you said could be reversed and make just as much sense. As to what you said about all the engines...

5.7 Hemi - I think we all could safely agree that Dodge is not trying to make the 5.7 competitive. So I'm not even gonna consider this in any realistic debate. It doesn't have anything it would need to be competitive and FCA doesn't care enough about that engine to change things. It brings them money and it's an attractive package for someone who wants a classic themed V8 Mopar.

6.1 Hemi - Again, another engine that isn't utilizing any of the technologies to make it better and more efficient. Yet it was still in range while being an attractive package for their customer base.

6.4 Hemi - Look at everything Ford had to do to get to 480 HP and this engine is making more than that and more torque with less tech. The only NA engine that Ford has that surpasses it is the Voodoo.


I have not heard any of this. At least not to the extent you're making it out to be. So I'm not sure I even need to address this any further.


I could ask you the exact same question about the DOHC Ford engines.

So that is what I'm getting at. Your observations don't seem to be based on anything substantial. GM pushed the LT1 to 455 and left it alone. More than likely they started working on the next engine long ago. The LT1 was powerful and impressive enough that they could get away with leaving it alone for this long and not having to worry. Ford pushed the Coyote to 460 and then the Bullitt to 480. For all we know that 480 number could be all marketing. But it is still, as you mentioned, a specialty version of the Mustang. So is the Shelby. So your argument falls flat because you are basing it off of a 460 HP Coyote engine that is utilizing more tech vs a 455 HP LT1 engine that isn't using all the tech available. That 5 HP difference is not even significant enough to stir a debate.

Dude, all Im saying, like shaffe, is that you seem to allude to some kind of high ceiling the OHV still has, and within business-case sense for the current and future automotive industry; to which I do not see.

The Bullitt is a mass-production car like the Mustang GT... My comments are towards mass-production cars. What meant by “supercar/halo-car or specialty/performance shop car” was to stray from the padded budgets for cars such as the Ford GT and the ZR1 or aftermarket cars like Roush and Hennessey. So, a Ford Mustang GT or Chevy Camaro SS.

Answer my question: What would you do to the LT1?

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

What I'm confused about is what makes you think GM is going to have such a hard time and FOrd won't. Or rather, I'm curious as to why you think the OHV engines are more limited when the exact opposite is proven to be true. Everything you said could be reversed and make just as much sense. As to what you said about all the engines...

5.7 Hemi - I think we all could safely agree that Dodge is not trying to make the 5.7 competitive. So I'm not even gonna consider this in any realistic debate. It doesn't have anything it would need to be competitive and FCA doesn't care enough about that engine to change things. It brings them money and it's an attractive package for someone who wants a classic themed V8 Mopar.

6.1 Hemi - Again, another engine that isn't utilizing any of the technologies to make it better and more efficient. Yet it was still in range while being an attractive package for their customer base.

6.4 Hemi - Look at everything Ford had to do to get to 480 HP and this engine is making more than that and more torque with less tech. The only NA engine that Ford has that surpasses it is the Voodoo.


I have not heard any of this. At least not to the extent you're making it out to be. So I'm not sure I even need to address this any further.


I could ask you the exact same question about the DOHC Ford engines.

So that is what I'm getting at. Your observations don't seem to be based on anything substantial. GM pushed the LT1 to 455 and left it alone. More than likely they started working on the next engine long ago. The LT1 was powerful and impressive enough that they could get away with leaving it alone for this long and not having to worry. Ford pushed the Coyote to 460 and then the Bullitt to 480. For all we know that 480 number could be all marketing. But it is still, as you mentioned, a specialty version of the Mustang. So is the Shelby. So your argument falls flat because you are basing it off of a 460 HP Coyote engine that is utilizing more tech vs a 455 HP LT1 engine that isn't using all the tech available. That 5 HP difference is not even significant enough to stir a debate.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

OHV engines have the same fuel economy and emissions control technologies available to them that OHC engines have. In some cases the physical manifestation is different because one cam vs four cams, but essentially the same technologies. Things that the small block could implement that have not been implemented yet include

• dual fuel injection
• Cooled EGR
• low voltage electrification (12V or 48V hybrid)

For the most part, dual fuel injection is less about power and more about emissions. At low load, DI produces soot. Not surprising since DI is a technology borrowed from diesel and what is diesel's biggest problem? Soot. The point of dual fuel is it runs on port fuel injection at low loads to reduce soot then adds in DI when power is needed. There are a couple exotic applications (McLaren, I think) that have dual fuel because at the top end, DI alone cannot deliver enough fuel, so adding port increases the volume.

Water cooling could be used for either cleaner emissions or more power, depending on how it is integrated. There is also the potential to progress with cylinder deactivation (including move from AFM to DFM). There is probably a little more flexibility in multi-stage turbocharging than in supercharging, but LT4 and LT5 are doing just fine with supercharging, so it's hard to say if they want to or will flip that switch.

And if all that doesn't result in a powerful engine meeting EPA requirements, there's always the full, high voltage hybrid option. Mustang is already going that route. No reason Camaro couldn't do the same.

Good points Martin, but I HIGHLY doubt Chevy would do water injection for Camaro: complexity with development, assembly and at the customer end. With “DFI” you’re not getting much more power. Cooled EGR is more about emissions/fuel economy.

Im trying to focus NA, as forced induction and e-“assist” is sort-of a “switch” like you say.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Mountain

Good points Martin, but I HIGHLY doubt Chevy would do water injection for Camaro: complexity with development, assembly and at the customer end. With “DFI” you’re not getting much more power. Cooled EGR is more about emissions/fuel economy.

Im trying to focus NA, as forced induction and e-“assist” is sort-of a “switch” like you say.

For Camaro, probably not. But I was discussing OHV in general, not just small block. There really isn’t much complexity in development. Most of the hand wringing wrt water injection is where does the water come from. Most likely customer fill, which sucks. BMW has been considering capturing AC condensation, but that is no where near enough.

The technologies I mentioned are all focused on emissions and fuel economy. DFI is not really about power. It’s about letting engines that make high power pass emissions regulations by reducing low load / low speed emissions associated with DI. As I mentioned there are a couple applications that add PFI injectors because the DI injectors can’t deliver enough fuel at really high (deep triple digit) speeds. But again, that’s not an issue of developing power. The thing with high powered V8s is making them clean enough to stay on the market. If they can’t meet emissions, it doesn’t matter how much power they can make.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Mountain

Dude, all Im saying, like shaffe, is that you seem to allude to some kind of high ceiling the OHV still has, and within business-case sense for the current and future automotive industry; to which I do not see.

The Bullitt is a mass-production car like the Mustang GT... My comments are towards mass-production cars. What meant by “supercar/halo-car or specialty/performance shop car” was to stray from the padded budgets for cars such as the Ford GT and the ZR1 or aftermarket cars like Roush and Hennessey. So, a Ford Mustang GT or Chevy Camaro SS.

I'm not saying there is a high ceiling. I'm just not sure why you think the way you do when the exact same thing can be said in Ford's case. Which I already mentioned. Regardless of mass production or what have you we still see an OHV engine making 485 HP which is the SRT8 or SRT or whatever they're calling it these days. The LT1 is at 455 while the 3rd Gen Coyote is at 460. Ok that difference isn't even worth mentioning. Especially since the Mustang got an update while the LT1 has remained unchanged since 2016. So what does that leave? The Bullitt. One could argue that the 480 HP number is all marketing. but that's an argument for a different day. It's a 25 HP difference. A more aggressive tune from GM could fix that. Or an updated IM which Ford seems to love doing. Or they could free up the exhaust which Ford also loves to do. The LT1 was developed soo long ago that any idiot could come up with a way to increase output especially since the factory caps these cars. Do you really think that 455 was the max output they could squeeze out of it? LOL!! So then there is the Voodoo which made a little more than the Z28. In each of these cases, Ford built a car AFTER the specific Camaro it was built to take on has been out for some time. So I don't see anything in your argument to support what you're saying. Especially when, pushrod engines have throughout history made more HP and TQ than their OHC counterparts.

Originally Posted by Mountain

Answer my question: What would you do to the LT1?

What the hell do I look like, an engineer? Ask GM what they plan to do. I don't care especially since this is my last Muscle/Pony Car I'll ever buy. But like I said before...more compression, freer flowing IM and exhaust, adjust the tune, adjust the pulleys, yada yada...you'll see soon enough when the next Gen shows up. And then you can tell us all about how the OHV engines are maxed out all over again.