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Old 04-23-2019, 08:22 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Tajefe Couple View Post
Dave you are right BMR makes great products. Would never buy from someone who made such comments to me though just because my prerogative. Not the greatest sales tactic IMHO. Perhaps I should contact the company directly maybe they'd be interested on how the company is represented to prospective customers. Don't see myself as someone who would do something like that over such a petty comment though. Just seemed totally unnecessary again my opinion.

You are also again right if what you meant that sometimes have trouble conveying my point. I feel to have a solid reason as why that I'll probably never go in to on here though.
To that I took your comment to mean the general public as a whole can't afford electric, surely not the ZL1 owners on here? Much like most latest and greatest eventually I think cost will come down hopefully.
Yeah I meant people in general. Lots of us here are fortunate enough to be able to afford these awesome cars (not just the ZL1 specifically) but many are still driving 20-30 year old cars as their only vehicle.

The oil/gas lobby is pretty big too.. but that might be crossing too far into politics.
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Old 04-23-2019, 12:59 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Dave-ROR View Post
Yeah I meant people in general. Lots of us here are fortunate enough to be able to afford these awesome cars (not just the ZL1 specifically) but many are still driving 20-30 year old cars as their only vehicle.

The oil/gas lobby is pretty big too.. but that might be crossing too far into politics.
Never really thought it about that. Very valid point, some people just getting by for whatever reason probably won't be able to afford electric anytime soon. To that point even used an electric vehicle would at some time need new batteries at the least. Don't think that cost would come down enough for those that currently drive the $free-$???? priced vehicles could afford. Think recently the cost was close to putting a new engine in a vehicle when needed. Excellent point sir!
If I remember right when the government did "cash for clunkers" it affected the cost of lower end vehicles. Some people complained couldn't find affordable vehicles. So I agree with out getting in to it politics can play a huge roll when it comes to autos.
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Old 04-23-2019, 09:37 PM   #31
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Love the Icon and agree with what your saying but make no mistake America was well aware Electric was the future decades ago. Problem was Corp America and Big Oil wouldn't allow it back then.

Probably about 15 years ago I saw a show called WHO KILLED THE ELECTRIC CAR. If anyone DOESNT think Corp America runs the country and calls the shots you should watch it, you will blown away when you see what they did and the cover ups involved...

They had a fleet of electric cars out there in the 90's for over 5 years, no one could buy them and they would only lease them to the rich and famous. After pressure from Big Oil and Corp America 6 Years later Chevy bought the Battery Mfg's and closed all the plants, recalled every single car (outright went to the peoples house and took them). Put them on Car Carriers, and undercover camera crews filmed them destroying each and everyone (even BRAND NEW vehicles with 0 miles).

The Big 3 were all involved, over 5,000 vehicles were destroyed, and Ca Laws changed so they could kill the laws that were passed prior that would force The Big 3 to go electric. Although Big Oil may not have the power they use to have it's only a matter of time before Corp America figures out how they make all the money by overcharging us for charging. Then it'll happen. And there will be Hot Rod Electic Cars so life will go on, there's already Electric Dragsters, Drag Bikes, Formula One Cars, etc....

Personally I think I'll be driving 500 to 1000 HP V8's for decades to come and then I'll die so I'm good
First of all, I am a HUGE proponent of electric cars, despite the fact that for most of my time at GM, especially my last 20 years, I was heavily involved in internal combustion engine development and technology planning. We’ve owned Chevrolet Volts since 2011 and have a 240V charger in our garage. Now....about this movie.

Imagine if Hillary Clinton were hired to write Donald Trump’s biography. That’s just about how “objective” that piece was. Let’s start with the basic premise of the movie. Hundreds of people who leased GM’s EV1 electric car were pissed off that at the end of their lease GM would not allow them to buy the cars and, when GM snatched the cars from their desperate little hands, GM crushed most of those cars. Oh, the horror. And the leases were not available only to the rich and famous. People wanting to lease one simply had to qualify, based on among other things, having other vehicles in their household because the EV1 had very limited range and cargo capacity. Go try to lease a Toyota Mirai. You will go through the same screening that EV1 lessees had to go through. What was NOT well explained in the movie was that
  • From the very beginning GM stated that the cars would only be made available on a Closed End Lease, meaning that at the end of the lease, the cars HAD TO be returned to GM. BTW - Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai are doing that right now with their Fuel Cell Vehicles [Toyota Mirai, Honda Clarity FCEV, and Hyundai Tucson FCEV]. I guess I’ll have to wait for the “Who Killed the Fuel Cell EV” movie.
  • The only reason GM put the EV1 into commerce in the first place was because CARB had just passed the first Zero Emissions Mandate that would have required any car company selling vehicles in California to ensure that 10% of the vehicles they sold were Zero Emissions vehicles by I think 2010. After arguing unsuccessfully with CARB that requiring automakers to sell high volumes of a technology that was not ready yet was a fool’s mission, GM grudgingly agreed to offer the EV1. This was done partially as a means of demonstrating to CARB how unmanageable that law would be. CARB eventually recognized this and changed the ZEV Mandate several times, creating categories for Partial Zero Emissions Vehicles, Low Emissions Vehicles, Ultra Low Emissions Vehicles, Super Ultra Low Emissions Vehicles...there’s a longer list.
  • At the point that GM was trying to explain the reasons for only offering Closed End Leases it was pointed out that from the time the vehicles were developed to the time that the leases were to end, GM’s development of battery technology had made the lead acid batteries in the EV1 obsolete. The technologies that GM was working on (Nickel Metal Hydride followed by Lithium Ion) were incompatible with the systems in the EV1 and could not be retrofit. Even so, the last batch of EV1s were built with early formulations of NiMH batteries. The car’s electrical system was basically reworked to accommodate the NiMH batteries. So basically, owners would never be able to replace the batteries in their cars. Unless they wanted to pay prototype part prices for replacement batteries. Money would be better invested in a new Bentley.

EV’s have come a long way for sure. Look at Tesla, and Rivian ( which will be built in Indiana, not Detroit, btw). But even so, 10 years or more beyond the date when CARB was trying to force all automakers to sell 10% Zero Emissions Vehicles, electric vehicles accounted for 1.22% of new vehicles sold in the US last year.
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Old 04-23-2019, 09:57 PM   #32
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My thoughts on the future of gas engines. They will be around for several more decades. Automakers have raised the bar on development of fuel saving and emissions reduction technologies that you see (Stop / Start, Cylinder Deactivation) as well as those that you don’t see even though they may be on the cars you drive (Cooled Exhaust Gas Recirculation [EGR], short route EGR, Deceleration Fuel Cutoff [DFCO], close coupled converters, gas particulate filters, high pressure GDI [significantly higher pressure than today’s “high pressure” direct injection]).

There is also a lot of work on integrating electrification with combustion engines. Things like 48V Mild Hybrid systems, 48V based electric superchargers, and other techs that either allow the automaker to downsize the engine or allow the engine to operate long periods of time with the engine off. I’m not talking Stop / Start here. I’m talking integration that allows your engine to shut off at highway speeds for short periods of time. Sailing. While the car is sailing, an electric motor is turning the transmission and driveshaft. Press your right foot and the engine jumps back into the party. Seamlessly. All Audi and Mercedes 4 and 6 cylinder cars coming to market now have a 48V Mild Hybrid system built into them. And Mercedes just introduced their first V8 48V Mild Hybrid system in the GLS that launched at the NY Auto Show last week. The next generation of 48V engines in those cars will likely including the sailing function I described.

Then there are companies like Toyota and Mazda that are working on technologies to increase the thermal efficiency of combustion engines. Both companies have engines capable of achieving 41% thermal efficiency. Thermal efficiency is basically how much of the heat energy released from a unit of fuel gets converted into energy to move the wheels. For most gasoline engines, thermal efficiency is somewhere in the 25 - 33% range. Diesels tend to be in the 35 - 45% range. Toyota and Mazda are introducing engines with diesel-like thermal efficiency. If combustion engines were going away anytime soon, they’d be spending that development money elsewhere.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:22 PM   #33
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Nice write ups. I did see where Rivian purchased the old Mitsubishi plant in Illinois and not Detroit. Didn't know production wasn't going to occur in Michigan though. Was hoping to see the motor city selected and thought it would be exciting for them to have companies like this again looking to Detroit. To bad that must not have happened. They do have positions(not just production) in Michigan, California, Illinois, and even the UK though. Just think it's cool they are designing and building a truck like that at all. Apparently Mr. Bezos agrees and reportedly invested several million into the company. Seems like Mr. Amazon has become very interested in investing in autonomous, electric, and even Toyota on e-Palette. Go figure though a logistics and shipping company investing in the future. It was also reported GM might be considering partnering with them. Sounds like GM bailed though. Japan’s Sumitomo Corp. and Saudi auto distributor Abdul Latif Jameel Ltd. are among other partners that seem determined to see the company succeed. Just another step in making more variety available to consumers like us and I'm excited to be around to see the auto world making revolutionary changes!
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:46 PM   #34
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Nice write ups. I did see where Rivian purchased the old Mitsubishi plant in Illinois and not Detroit. Didn't know production wasn't going to occur in Michigan though. Was hoping to see the motor city selected and thought it would be exciting for them to have companies like this again looking to Detroit. To bad that must not have happened. They do have positions(not just production) in Michigan, California, Illinois, and even the UK though. Just think it's cool they are designing and building a truck like that at all. Apparently Mr. Bezos agrees and reportedly invested several million into the company. Seems like Mr. Amazon has become very interested in investing in autonomous, electric, and even Toyota on e-Palette. Go figure though a logistics and shipping company investing in the future. It was also reported GM might be considering partnering with them. Sounds like GM bailed though. Japan’s Sumitomo Corp. and Saudi auto distributor Abdul Latif Jameel Ltd. are among other partners that seem determined to see the company succeed. Just another step in making more variety available to consumers like us and I'm excited to be around to see the auto world making revolutionary changes!
You're right. Illinois for Rivian. I was thinking they bought the Mishawaka Indiana plant (old Hummer plant). Seres, formerly SF Motors, bought that one.

I'm not certain that GM has walked away from Rivian yet. The Lyft and Cruise Automation investments came from out of nowhere.
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Old 04-24-2019, 06:55 AM   #35
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Imagine if Hillary Clinton were hired to write Donald Trump’s biography. That’s just about how “objective” that piece was. Let’s start with the basic premise of the movie...
YES!!! Thank you so much for the detail on that. I haven't seen the movie, but just based on the way it was described when originally posted it sounds like some completely twisted take on something that had actually happened. Truth and objectivity in the media waved byebye a long time ago - but if you maintain a BS filter you can still usually spot that kind of stuff and those comments had mine pegged - I just didn't have the time to look into it and de-bunk. You did all that work for me - not that it had to be done, but I really like to know! Thanks!
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Old 04-24-2019, 07:23 AM   #36
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You're right. Illinois for Rivian. I was thinking they bought the Mishawaka Indiana plant (old Hummer plant). Seres, formerly SF Motors, bought that one.

I'm not certain that GM has walked away from Rivian yet. The Lyft and Cruise Automation investments came from out of nowhere.
And on that note....HOTTT of the press (Free Press actually ) Ford invests half a billion in Rivian.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...nt/3559641002/
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Old 04-24-2019, 07:29 AM   #37
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Great reads Martinjlm, thank you
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Old 04-24-2019, 09:19 PM   #38
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And on that note....HOTTT of the press (Free Press actually ) Ford invests half a billion in Rivian.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...nt/3559641002/
Makes perfect sense they've been running there skateboards with an F-150 for testing in Detroit for awhile. Think I saw something once where the main plan is for Rivian to sell off the technology to other manufactures and make tons of money.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivi...s-ford-f-150s/
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Old 04-25-2019, 07:31 AM   #39
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And on that note....HOTTT of the press (Free Press actually ) Ford invests half a billion in Rivian.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...nt/3559641002/
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Makes perfect sense they've been running there skateboards with an F-150 for testing in Detroit for awhile. Think I saw something once where the main plan is for Rivian to sell off the technology to other manufactures and make tons of money.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/rivi...s-ford-f-150s/
It does make sense, but it is probably not gonna happen exactly like that. I was on the media conference call that Ford and Rivian jointly had and a couple things Jim Hackett said have me going "hmmmm".


The first thing that he said early on in the call, was that the product coming off the Rivian skateboard would be "incremental to our current plan". I took that to mean it would NOT be for a product previously announced. Ford announced the intent to do an F-150 EV in December 2016. So by that measure, Rivian will NOT be providing the underpinnings of the F-150 EV. Makes sense, because with a commitment to the idea in December 2016, Ford obviously has a lot of work into it by now and wouldn't want to just flush that. Also, if you're Rivian in this deal the last thing you wanna do is give Ford the hammer to club you over the head. A Ford F-150 off the Rivian skateboard would compete directly with their R1T, but with better brand recognition.


The other thing he said that got my mental wheels turning was that the product would launch in North America. Later in the Q&A he conceded that it might also eventually wind up overseas, but did not say where. Here's my take on that... Other than F-150 (see previous paragraph) what does Ford do that is primarily North American? Two things come to mind... commercial vehicles (Transit Van) and Lincoln. The skateboard could be used to provide electric Transit Vans for delivery services. Amazon is also an investor in Rivian. Might they benefit from an electric cargo van? Ya damn skippy they would. As for Lincoln, the skateboard could easily be used to produce a Lincoln flagship sedan to compete with Tesla Model S, Porsche Taycan, and other expected large lux sedans that are expected to be electrified over the next 5 - 10 years. Lincoln is just now starting to gain presence in China, so that would play well there. It would also give Lincoln the chance to one up Cadillac, the anointed bearer of the electric torch for GM.

Either (or both) scenario could work.
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Old 04-25-2019, 11:24 AM   #40
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Love the insight.
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Old 04-25-2019, 02:36 PM   #41
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My thoughts on the future of gas engines. They will be around for several more decades. Automakers have raised the bar on development of fuel saving and emissions reduction technologies that you see (Stop / Start, Cylinder Deactivation) as well as those that you don’t see even though they may be on the cars you drive (Cooled Exhaust Gas Recirculation [EGR], short route EGR, Deceleration Fuel Cutoff [DFCO], close coupled converters, gas particulate filters, high pressure GDI [significantly higher pressure than today’s “high pressure” direct injection]).

There is also a lot of work on integrating electrification with combustion engines. Things like 48V Mild Hybrid systems, 48V based electric superchargers, and other techs that either allow the automaker to downsize the engine or allow the engine to operate long periods of time with the engine off. I’m not talking Stop / Start here. I’m talking integration that allows your engine to shut off at highway speeds for short periods of time. Sailing. While the car is sailing, an electric motor is turning the transmission and driveshaft. Press your right foot and the engine jumps back into the party. Seamlessly. All Audi and Mercedes 4 and 6 cylinder cars coming to market now have a 48V Mild Hybrid system built into them. And Mercedes just introduced their first V8 48V Mild Hybrid system in the GLS that launched at the NY Auto Show last week. The next generation of 48V engines in those cars will likely including the sailing function I described.

Then there are companies like Toyota and Mazda that are working on technologies to increase the thermal efficiency of combustion engines. Both companies have engines capable of achieving 41% thermal efficiency. Thermal efficiency is basically how much of the heat energy released from a unit of fuel gets converted into energy to move the wheels. For most gasoline engines, thermal efficiency is somewhere in the 25 - 33% range. Diesels tend to be in the 35 - 45% range. Toyota and Mazda are introducing engines with diesel-like thermal efficiency. If combustion engines were going away anytime soon, they’d be spending that development money elsewhere.
These are REALLY cool to me, especially the effect of increased thermal efficiency on power output. ICEs will continue to become more powerful per-unit-of-displacement for a while before they're finally replaced.
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