Kenne Bell intake tube

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by Matt@KB

But you admit saying it then to one customer? And you back it up in this thread. So i would say that makes it pretty reliable. Maybe not 100% correct on what came out of your mouth but you do admit to telling a customer the only way to fix it is to change the tube to the 4". All we are saying is that it does NOT need to be changed to fix the issue which has been proven by the shops that can tune it.

This is Getting Stupid Now.

I didn't tell that customer I could not tune it, SO WRONG AGAIN!

I said it would be Easier with better resolution, Again your Getting Second Hand Information and Putting words in my mouth.

He gave up on me before I could finish the tune, I did not give up on him.

I had one Here Last Friday with a Pretty Big Cam in it and It Runs Really Good, LS3, Customer is Totally Satisfied, but I still would like to have better resolution.

I can't help it if I am in the Pursuit of Perfection.

So Please Stop Dancing Around the FACTUAL DATA.

Ted.

[Rcfiddy1]

I don't see a problem. I asked a question and was just looking to see if my tuner was correct with his remarks about the maf and intake tube. Which turns out to be on par with what TJ was saying. The fact that it takes a few days to get a response from KB and my car was sitting in my tuners lot, I needed answers. Now I know my options.

[Matt@KB]

Not putting words in your mouth just saying what was said and what we see from your post. Seems to all add up. We hear from a customer you recommend this and then you back it up here so put the two together. If you can tune that LS3 with a pretty big cam and the 4.5" tube, why would you tell another customer to change his tube to a 4". No dancing around Ted just going by what has been told to our customer, which was that you recommended a smaller tube to get the car to run right when it was all in your tune. Again something you STILL BACK ON HERE.

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

This is Getting Stupid Now.

I didn't tell that customer I could not tune it, SO WRONG AGAIN!

I said it would be Easier with better resolution, Again your Getting Second Hand Information and Putting words in my mouth.

He gave up on me before I could finish the tune, I did not give up on him.

I had one Here Last Friday with a Pretty Big Cam in it and It Runs Really Good, LS3, Customer is Totally Satisfied, but I still would like to have better resolution.

I can't help it if I am in the Pursuit of Perfection.

So Please Stop Dancing Around the FACTUAL DATA.

Ted.

[Matt@KB]

The problem is misinformation given out by shops. You don't need to change your tube you just need a good tuner that knows his/her stuff. You got to ask yourself why all the KB kit owners can run there kit with the tube but only a few can't? Its in the tune.

Originally Posted by Rcfiddy1

I don't see a problem. I asked a question and was just looking to see if my tuner was correct with his remarks about the maf and intake tube. Which turns out to be on par with what TJ was saying. The fact that it takes a few days to get a response from KB and my car was sitting in my tuners lot, I needed answers. Now I know my options.

[East Coast Supercharging]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Here is My Take on the Intake tube, No Flaming Please.

Although it is GREAT for the BIG Peak HP number Driveability suffers due to lost resolution.

The Gen5 MAF has a Range of 16000 Hz, Even some of our KILLER builds only Reach 14500 Hz so we have Plenty of MAF in a 4 in pipe.

Stock Cars with no Supercharger will go to 9000 Hz

With the 4.5 inch KB pipe at 10 psi boost we Rarely see more than 9000 Hz

Going to a 4 inch intake tube restores resolution, and torque calculations done by the TCM, so this is especially important on the L99 Cars.

Also a Stock Car will Idle around 2500 Hz the KB with 4.5 in Pipe will Idle around 1500 Hz, so Again Lost Resolution.

Ted.

Originally Posted by Matt@KB

The problem is misinformation given out by shops. You don't need to change your tube you just need a good tuner that knows his/her stuff. You got to ask yourself why all the KB kit owners can run there kit with the tube but only a few can't? Its in the tune.

Matt, I am not here to argue with you by any means, and I respect your position on the boards here, along with purchasing products from you. However, I have to agree with Ted here, and your approach towards him seems a little less then professional IMHO.

Ted is providing factual data that is absolutely true. Can the set up be tuned as it sits? Yes, is it less then perfect in my personal opinion? Yes, not all tuners are ok with less then perfect.

Not only does it cause less resolution of the MAF, but it also messes with trans tables on the auto's because of that.

So by what you have posted here, myself and Ted basically do not know what we are doing as tuners, and the customers should go elsewhere? Ted seems to have a pretty good reputation here, and I hope the same for myself. I do not personally know Ted's tuning back ground, but I have literally tuned 1000's of LS powered vehicles, Many of them being record holding cars like fastest stock bottom end LS1-LS6-LS2, LS3, and fastest supercharged Vette. With a quick look at my EFI live V2 box, I have made over 8000 down loads since mid 09, and thats not including the cars we tune with HP tuners or SCT. I do not consider myself the smartest guy in the world, but after tuning all day, everyday for the last ten years, even I picked up a few things along the way. Proper sized charge tubes with a card style MAF, and MAF placement, is one of them.

I'm also curious why you would cancel someones warranty if they change the intake tube? The throttle body is 4", so it necks down anyway, changing the intake tube would not effect your product in the least? This is going to cost the customer a fair amount of money and time, my additional time added to the tuning process, and now the warranty will be null and viod?

If we can proceed with this thread in a professional manor, I'll be happy to provide data logs etc to back up what Ted and I are saying, along with new data logs after we replace the intake tube today. If not, then this is my first and last post in this thread.



Thanks, take care.

Doug @ ECS

[Matt@KB]

I can see where your coming from but not once have I questioned who Ted is as a person. What I questioned is the need to change the 4.5" tube. I have been nothing but nice and respectful to Ted before he made contradicting comments and made it seem as we if didn't take his information seriously before I even chimed in. We know Ted has a great reputation on here that is why we want it to be known that the 4.5" tube doesn't have to be changed to get the car to run right. Someone with such influence in the Camaro community making claims like that would cause serious problems and concern for customers, especially since it is NOT necessary. So to get KB customers to changes their kits for something that is not needed is what were trying to stop. What doesn't make sense is that many shops are tuning for the 4.5" tube with no issues. He even said himself he can tune with the 4.5" tube, even on a car with a built engine and big cam. I just ask why can you only tune for the 4.5" tube on some not all? Warranty will be void due to the altering of the kit, why wouldn't it be? The 4.5" tube is a major portion of the kit. Ted said it himself he can tune the 4.5" tube so you should have no problems as well. Again, no reason to change the 4.5" tube.

Originally Posted by East Coast Supercharging

Matt, I am not here to argue with you by any means, and I respect your position on the boards here, along with purchasing products from you. However, I have to agree with Ted here, and your approach towards him seems a little less then professional IMHO.

Ted is providing factual data that is absolutely true. Can the set up be tuned as it sits? Yes, is it less then perfect in my personal opinion? Yes, not all tuners are ok with less then perfect.

Not only does it cause less resolution of the MAF, but it also messes with trans tables on the auto's because of that.

So by what you have posted here, myself and Ted basically do not know what we are doing as tuners, and the customers should go elsewhere? Ted seems to have a pretty good reputation here, and I hope the same for myself. I do not personally know Ted's tuning back ground, but I have literally tuned 1000's of LS powered vehicles, Many of them being record holding cars like fastest stock bottom end LS1-LS6-LS2, LS3, and fastest supercharged Vette. With a quick look at my EFI live V2 box, I have made over 8000 down loads since mid 09, and thats not including the cars we tune with HP tuners or SCT. I do not consider myself the smartest guy in the world, but after tuning all day, everyday for the last ten years, even I picked up a few things along the way. Proper sized charge tubes with a card style MAF, and MAF placement, is one of them.

I'm also curious why you would cancel someones warranty if they change the intake tube? The throttle body is 4", so it necks down anyway, changing the intake tube would not effect your product in the least? This is going to cost the customer a fair amount of money and time, my additional time added to the tuning process, and now the warranty will be null and viod?

If we can proceed with this thread in a professional manor, I'll be happy to provide data logs etc to back up what Ted and I are saying, along with new data logs after we replace the intake tube today. If not, then this is my first and last post in this thread.



Thanks, take care.

Doug @ ECS

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

LOL, yeah you caught me Doing What I love to do, MAKE HP!

I have, but they don't feel my Opinion is Valid.

Same with the IAT issues.

It is best to keep the pipe size consistent and smooth to avoid Turbulence, 4 inch is the Correct Size.

Ted.

[Matt@KB]

I apologize Ted for coming on a bit too strong we do value your input here in the Camaro world.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by Matt@KB

I apologize Ted for coming on a bit too strong we do value your input here in the Camaro world.

Apology accepted!

I am not here to Hurt anyone's Sales, and your response to ECS seems geared toward that, rather than a solution.

My Opinion Stands you should offer the kit with a 4 inch Maf Tube with Warranty.

I Guarantee you will have Better Results with the Tuning.

I would also be willing to Share one of my L99 4 inch MAF tube tunes with you for review so you can offer a Better Kit, The same Reason I chimed on the the IAT issues I want you to offer a Better Kit.

There is NO benefit to a 4.5 inch Maf pipe on the 2.9 kit when we have a 3.5 inch Throttle body.

The 4.5 tube is better suited for your 3.6 kit where you would run a 102mm/ 4 inch or larger TB, IMO

This is a New world with the internet, and if there are any flaws in a Kit word gets out faster than ever, so how you respond makes all the difference in how potential customers will view this situation.

My Ultimate goal is To help you Not Hurt you.

Ted.

[DarricSS]

Matt what is your position at KB? Internet Blowhard? You sound allot like that guy from that Vegas shop KB supports.

You are attacking a very respected Site contributer on a Daily basis becasue you don't agree or refuse to agree that he is right.

IMO, KB sounds allot like the Borg, resistance is futile...

Each day my respect for Whipple grows, they stay out of the bickering and just let their product do the talking...

[Matt@KB]

Thanks Ted we appreciate that, its not sales that we are concerned about with this, it is the customer we are worried about. It is the fact that the 4.5" tube can be tuned properly as you said. It may not be as easy as a smaller 4" tube but it can be done and done well. We are concerned for our customers because they do not have to change anything with the kit to get the car running right for their enjoyment. Thanks again Ted I'm sure Jim will look into it like we are for the IAT's.

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Apology accepted!

I am not here to Hurt anyone's Sales, and your response to ECS seems geared toward that, rather than a solution.

My Opinion Stands you should offer the kit with a 4 inch Maf Tube with Warranty.

I Guarantee you will have Better Results with the Tuning.

I would also be willing to Share one of my L99 4 inch MAF tube tunes with you for review so you can offer a Better Kit, The same Reason I chimed on the the IAT issues I want you to offer a Better Kit.

There is NO benefit to a 4.5 inch Maf pipe on the 2.9 kit when we have a 3.5 inch Throttle body.

The 4.5 tube is better suited for your 3.6 kit where you would run a 102mm/ 4 inch or larger TB, IMO

This is a New world with the internet, and if there are any flaws in a Kit word gets out faster than ever, so how you respond makes all the difference in how potential customers will view this situation.

My Ultimate goal is To help you Not Hurt you.

Ted.

[MRGOODWRENCH3]

I had a L99 Camaro towed into my shop from another local shop that was not able to tune it with the KB. This particular car had the large intake tube with half of the stock air box in the lower fender. In order to get a proper and consistent MAF reading I had to plug the hole in the KB tube and use the factory mounting position. This made a huge difference in the tuning and overall running of the engine.

Every supercharged engine that we build at 2 Edge Performance is tuned on a Dyno Jet Dyno. We do not use any box/can tunes.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by Matt@KB

Thanks Ted we appreciate that, its not sales that we are concerned about with this, it is the customer we are worried about. It is the fact that the 4.5" tube can be tuned properly as you said. It may not be as easy as a smaller 4" tube but it can be done and done well. We are concerned for our customers because they do not have to change anything with the kit to get the car running right for their enjoyment. Thanks again Ted I'm sure Jim will look into it like we are for the IAT's.

If it is the Customer your concerned about, Why not Give them the Best Kit Money can buy.

The Fact Remains, a larger tube reduces Resolution.

WHY, reduce resolution when the Stock Maf has enough range for 1K HP.

WHY Screw up the Trans Torque Calculations?

We spend most of our time driving our cars in the 2000 to 8000 Hz range on a Stock MAF This is where Resolution is Important and this is what makes a nice car a Great Car from a driveability standpoint.

Your tube only goes from 1500 to 6000 Hz range in the same driveability areas, Reduced resolution reduces Driveability.

The ONLY Reason I see for the Larger tube on This Car is a Guy thing, Mines bigger than yours.

If you won't make the Tubes I will.

Ted.

[Matt@KB]

We already do offer the BEST kit money can buy in our opinion and our customer's opinion. It can be tuned with great driveability, as you said yourself it can be done. Not saying the tube doesn't do what you say but it works and can be tuned just fine. We will just have to agree to disagree. If we put a smaller tube in the kit this thread would be "who makes a bigger cold air tube for the KB?" guaranteed, its a catch 22.

[M6HuggerSS]

Matt, with all due respect... does Jim know you are on this site doing a piss poor job representing his brand?

You have done a horrible job answering questions on several threads about your company's products... answering questions with questions is silly.

The question still remains... WHY ARE YOU USING A 4.5" TUBE WHEN THE CAR WILL RUN BETTER AND MAKE THE SAME POWER with a 4" tube? that is the question...
and a technical answer would be best.

The several issues i have been reading about with the KB product sounds similar to the story of how A&A corvettes started building their custom kits using ProCharger head units.

i would think doing your CUSTOMER a service would be to improve your product when issues or opportunities arise... not just stop listening and defend your product like it is UNCHANGEABLE.

Matt, i can tell you right know with a 100% confidence.
you are not helping people’s perception of your brand.
you may want to start changing your approach to constructive criticisms.
ESPESALLY when they come from respected individuals.

Im not trying to bash you or KB... honestly just trying to help.

TED, if KB wont open your eyes to thier mistakes, you should offer a 4" tube.
What might the cost on that be anyway?
Oh, and why your at it... how about adding an additional HE to help lower the IAT's.?
Just a thought... i love the KB product, but also agree that it needs some important changes made to stay on the cutting edge.