GM announces plant closings and ending production of several sedans

[Klayman]

Originally Posted by lawguy85

Idk if any of that's true or not, no sources. But I'll humor you, you mention one factor, tariffs. As someone who travels, the more obvious answer is American vehicles are ill suited for European or Japanese roads. From Wikipedia:

The Interstate Highway standards for the U.S. Interstate Highway System use a 12-foot (3.7 m) standard lane width, while narrower lanes are used on lower classification roads. In Europe, laws and road widths vary by country; the minimum widths of lanes are generally between 2.5 to 3.25 metres (8.2 to 10.7 ft)

In Japan:

major roads have lane widths of 3m (10’) to 3.5m (11’ 6”), side streets are often just wide enough for one small car. Tōkyō’s expressways are largely built with 3.25m (10’ 8”) lanes.

That says nothing of infrastructure, where people use public transit more in those countries and the home sizes are less than 1/2 the average square footage (2,600 US, 1,300 Japan, 458!! EU). Where are you going to park a your massive Ford or Chevy in Japan or Europe? So if you're single minded, you say "unfair marketplace". If you use the slightest logic you see why companies that sell nice, small vehicles do well in the EU and Japan.

They built products the can't sell globally except in...wait for it...China! Despite the propaganda US automakers are doing quite well there, we'll they were pre trade war at least (Ford's 2nd largest market, GM's largest. The CT6 will continue there, dead here, so in that metric even better for GM in China. But hey, who cares for well-researched truth when the official party line is so much more fulfilling for conformation bias...

Research any one of my statements within 2018. Of course there are other factors....

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by fastball

So were we supposed to just let China continue to rape us on the trade deficit? American companies would rather go bankrupt than fix their trade deficit with China, and that's why Trump had to do something. Is the tariffs the right answer? Probably not, but it's a good attempt and smacking the people who need to be smacked.

There are a lot of issues with our relationship with China but a trade deficit is not anywhere close to the top of the list.

I run 100% trade deficit with my grocery store, with GM for my car, etc. and I run exactly the opposite with the customers I have for my business. It's the overall balance with all of your trading partners that is important.

IMO there are a lot of reasons to not support China... their theft of IP, ridiculously large counterfeit industry, hacking attempts on all sorts of US gov't and industry... and the fact that they'll do whatever they think they can get away with wrt seizing and/or controlling land and trade. If their military could match ours we'd be in real trouble, and Xi is no better than Mao. It's scary imo, and no real good solutions exist. I just hope war is not inevitable.

[VAZL1]

Originally Posted by lawguy85

This statement is incongruous with your previous thoughts. Look for yourself, trends were started well before 45 took office. Source, the Fed:

https://www.npr.org/2018/09/12/64670...ng-u-s-economy

Not only that, the amount of jobs added per year under 45 are dwarfed by those added per year during 44's admin:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjo.../#3b62d1441283

You mentioned GDP grown, guess what, 45 also loses there:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.10e638dd980f

These are all FACTS. When you say something with nothing to back it up, that's OPINION. Cheerleading. Adhering to your political religion. Letting your bias skew empirical data.

Yeah, they are the same so-called facts all the liberals puke daily. The main reason the phrase "Fake Media" has taken center stage and gained national attention. You might as well have posted facts from CNN, lol!!!

[lawguy85]

Originally Posted by VAZL1

Yeah, they are the same so-called facts all the liberals puke daily. The main reason the phrase "Fake Media" has taken center stage and gained national attention. You might as well have posted facts from CNN, lol!!!

Nice retort, not a single shred of evidence to refute, resorting to parroting the favorite phrase of your dear leader. Ignorance sure is blissful...

Originally Posted by Klayman

Research any one of my statements within 2018. Of course there are other factors....

Full numbers aren't out yet, of course I didn't site the ongoing year. But here's one, Ford's sales were down 43% in September in China as a result of tarrifs, i.e. their 2nd largest market.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/12/ford...september.html

Way to help American companies...

[Chazzz]

Regardless of your politics the fact remains that this country has become so divided and tribal that it is scary.... What or who is to blame is subjective, but God help us!!!

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by shaffe

...My Focus died earlier this month, and it put me behind the 8 ball to get a new car. Now it was before I was ready so I knew I had to get a responsible choice with the little guy, and keep it in a modest budget. I looked Fusion's, Malibu's and then Accord, Camry and Mazda6. My Mazda6 has adaptive cruise control, sunroof, 19" wheels, city brake assist, lane keep assist, 250HP, 310 LB/FT of tq, heated leatherette seats and auto climate control, the list price on my car was 30 and all of that was standard! Only option was the paint. Couldn't come close to that in a Fusion or a Malibu. A comparable Malibu was over 36K and the Fusion was over 35K. The Accord came really close, but I liked the way the Mazda drove much better. Even on the styling front, IMO the Mazda6 is the best looking midsize car in the class (slight bias!) and the accord is a close second. The Mazda is definitely the best driving car in the class and that along with the long list of standard features at a relatively low MSRP is what made me jump from domestic to the Japanese. I think Ford and GM could look across the pacific and see how they are building their midszie sedans and take some serious notes.

And GM/Ford are more than OK with your choice...

One of the issues is smaller/less expensive cars are not profitable due to domestic automaker's liabilities to have to pay pensions and deal with Union inefficiencies. Japan's gov't pays auto worker's pensions. Labor costs and currency issues, including possible manipulation (Yen is cheaper vs $) are other factors.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...sler/23852189/

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by VAZL1

Yeah, they are the same so-called facts all the liberals puke daily. The main reason the phrase "Fake Media" has taken center stage and gained national attention. You might as well have posted facts from CNN, lol!!!

Please support your comment with FACTS of your own then.

Oh, wait... those are FEELING, not FACTS. There's a difference!

Nobody give AF what you're feeling, except maybe your mother.

[VAZL1]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Please support your comment with FACTS of your own then.

Oh, wait... those are FEELING, not FACTS. There's a difference!

Nobody give AF what you're feeling, except maybe your mother.

LOL!, facts, really, do they even exist anymore.


https://www.mrc.org/bozells-column/n...s-liberal-bias

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

And GM/Ford are more than OK with your choice...

One of the issues is smaller/less expensive cars are not profitable due to domestic automaker's liabilities to have to pay pensions and deal with Union inefficiencies. Japan's gov't pays auto worker's pensions. Labor costs and currency issues, including possible manipulation (Yen is cheaper vs $) are other factors.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...sler/23852189/

And I am not fine with them being fine with my decision lol. Example, so far I love my Mazda and loved the experience. Maybe when it's time to replace the wife's explorer, maybe because I had such a good experience we get a Mazda CX-9 instead of another Explorer.

That is an interesting article. Thanks for the great read!

[aland12345]

Interesting enough I was in Shanghai a year ago, the big seller there Buick... Which I believe was built a factory there. In two weeks In china the only Camaro I saw was on a billboard in the subway. The Chinese promote there foreign trade with special economic zones (Shanghai, Hong Kong, Shenzen) with government support. People need to remember there is more here than just tariffs. I'm hoping that the tariffs bring other nations to the bargaining table and level the playing field.... Chinese have subsidized there solar industry to run all others out of Business. Lets not forget the massive subsidies that the European Union has given to Airbus which is Boeing's main competitor. The list goes on. The American car industry has much to learn, Off shoring production of cars that are inferior will not win the war. Give us a nice warm interior with out all the shiny hard plastic. Dump most of the turbo's, build nice refined high tech power plants, the Camaro V6 or even the refined V8's I don't want to have to hit the gas a second or two early in hopes the turbo will spool up so I can get thru that hole in traffic. For most of the US how much time is spent idling and stopped. Use the start stop money to put a little real carbon fiber or wood if that's your thing into the interior. Step out once in awhile think Kia Soul, Mazda Miata, Remember the Xterra and the Aztec. Hire a stylist (Not Chris Bangle)see how that works out for you... Tesla is beating BMW even with out the unicorn ($35K model 3) Build a better American car don't just shrug your shoulders and build trucks. GM (and Ford) you can fix your problems take off the blinders...

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by VAZL1

LOL!, facts, really, do they even exist anymore.

Yes, Yes, and YES again.

IMO it's very important that people check their beliefs and feelings against reality. They don't always align.

[Silverado57]

Sometimes I have to wonder about the people that bang American cars in general and GM products specifically. For the last 35 years we have bled nothing but Chevy bowties and have put over 1.4 Million miles on 11 Chevrolets. We buy them and keep them until the wheels fall off. Only 1 was actually traded in on another Chevy. Two were totalled.

In all those cars and all those miles we have had only 2 OEM parts fail on the road - a water pump on an 89 Caprice and a fuel pump on a 2000 Silverado, and both at high mileage. They have all been solid, reliable vehicles and we get our money's worth out of every one. I've wanted a number of muscle cars over the years and I'm glad the Camaro is my first. We plan to keep it for a long, long time.

We bend over backwards to buy products Made in USA - cars, motorcycles, tools, appliances, clothing, you name it. It's not always easy and it's not always cheap. But we want to help keep Americans working and our economy strong. We're sorry to hear about the plants closing and all those people being laid off. We hope that GM will bounce back and be able to put those folks to work again.

[VAZL1]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Yes, Yes, and YES again.

IMO it's very important that people check their beliefs and feelings against reality. They don't always align.

This is very true, you should take your own advice.

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by LateBrakeU2

The next refresh for Camaro has been placed on indefinite hold, all focus has been placed on driverless/EV. Barra has stated if sales don't improve, it's axed.

I get, she will just sit back and pray that sales just pickup. I still have yet to see the first Camaro ad. She says the company currently is strong....yet they can't afford some well thought out ad campaigns? Sad.