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Old 10-12-2018, 02:26 PM   #15
acammer
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Originally Posted by Witt51 View Post
OK thanks. I didn't know if shaving heads would have same effect. I always assumed so and made sense to me but ive read differently and always made me scratch my head. I do have fly cut pistons so ptv is good. I have had some valves replaced so I actually measured each individualy and have a set of 7.4 and 7.375. My concern though is why that retainer popped out. I don't know if the comp lifters has less plunger travel and bottomed out or something else. I didn't over Rev at all or spin it to 6800 rpm.

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I would think there was some sort of mechanical issue at work to hurt the lifter like that. I send mine to 7300 routinely with stock lifters, I wouldn't think it's an over-rev issue. You mentioned you had some valves replaced, is that because of a previous failure/issue? No coil bind right?
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Old 10-12-2018, 04:35 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by acammer View Post
I would think there was some sort of mechanical issue at work to hurt the lifter like that. I send mine to 7300 routinely with stock lifters, I wouldn't think it's an over-rev issue. You mentioned you had some valves replaced, is that because of a previous failure/issue? No coil bind right?
Ya I had the heads redone. Checked the springs, change valve guides, valve seats and changed out roughly 8 valves. It was a few years ago. The engine was rebuilt after that.

I was curious if the retainer being popped out was from too long pushrods. Thats why I ordered 7.875 ones and new liftrrs

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Old 10-14-2018, 10:02 AM   #17
christianchevell
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7.875?///????????? Frankly always believed in going all in on new valves...…. I don't know the plunger area of the comp lifters but that's a long pushrod ….way long compared to 7.4...… and if your pulling the heads you have to do new gaskets and TTY bolts and check the baskets..heck I did new heads from summit, stock GMMP ported for 1400$, I hear dickey scoggins has the best deal for ones ported over the stock CNC, it does not take much to make freshening heads $$$$$ and new not that spendy… Something to think about, when I do springs someday I am going bushed trunnions on new rockers not just comp bearing upgrade, and or most likely just ditch my heads for GPI new smallbore ls7 style heads, different cam, MSD airforce , 102.... but that's someday....$$$$$ Springs I figure at 25k are trashed and going weaker according to my tuner and GMPP heads come with throw away beehives not even good for stock lift but the heads are NEW...and all new hollow stems ….

I think you mean 7.375.... And no the retainer that's just weird.... snap lock into the groove......longer makes it more likely to bottom out and keep the plunger part way down not even touch the retainer..... IMO you should have just used stock ls3/7 lifters like most or gone Morrel or something.... I think you may have just had a bum lifter..and should stay with the same length pushrod as before as that's whats recommended for stock geometry ….. here read the list of things on this pushrod ad showing what makes up the length needed....so many variables..... http://www.hawksmotorsports.com/push...2-ls3-l92-l99/

And frankly I would just most IMO replace the heads for new to be certain, and the lifters and go with new pushrods measured right.

Though some say stock is 7.4 its actually 7.385 I believe https://www.onallcylinders.com/2017/...ads-cam-specs/

And have read that 7.425 pretty common for pushrod length as the loss of the base circle... .025 from 7.425 = 7.4 close enough sort of to the stock 7.385..or 7.4 …..depending on where you read its like WTF ? . then you tighten 3/4 turn basically from zero lash which should be about 22 ft lbs to get in the more golden zone of preload ….. .050-.060

And that would be for not measuring basically just experience install.....

And the .047 thread pitch if with the " right pushrod length" is .047 distance one turn x 1.7 rocker arm ratio =.079 one turn net effective distance due to fulcrum effect of the rocker arm ratio so 3/4 of that's about .060 area.... so many did around that from zero lash to get the preload for stock type lifters with the pushrods the right length. So you may actually have been short on your pushrod length..... And not on a ls3 on a l99 I believe there are two lengths of pushrods one being different for the AFM lifters....if you had one of those... And that's my rambling, I used to use the EOIC method for my flat tappets on good old SBC stuff was like 1/2 turn on regular hydraulics to get the lash right on them ...real easy peezy….. but you would turn the push rods on them to find when it wont spin to find zero not rock the rocker back and forth …….


HOW can I explain it? MEH, here a LSX mag read from Comp Cam https://www.lsxmag.com/tech-stories/...ain-upgrades/:

Finally, Pritcher wishes that more people would pay more attention to their pushrod length – especially in the LS. “So often, when people do a cam swap in an LS engine, they will overlook making sure they are using the proper pushrod length and will in turn use the ‘go-to’ length that most folks typically throw in – a 7.4-inch pushrod. That will usually get you by but it doesn’t exactly get the lifter pre-load where it needs to be. Pushrod length is something you ALWAYS need to check because of different base circles used on various aftermarket cams. The typical hydraulic roller lifter likes to see anywhere from 0.03 to 0.06 worth of preload, so you’ve got a 0.03 window there to play with. We like to see you get your preload right in the middle of that range, right around 0.045.”
Since LS engines don’t have adjustable rockers, the pushrods are what determine the amount of preload. Most aftermarket cams have a smaller base circle, which in turn, means that you will need a little bit longer pushrod. In a situation like that, if you don’t get longer pushrods you won’t have enough preload and you will get some valvetrain noise.
“One of the biggest misconceptions about LS engines is that you can determine what length pushrods you need based solely on what components you have. The truth is that the only way to find out what length pushrod you need is to measure it for yourself because of all the variables that can come into play; the deck on the block, the deck on the heads, and whether or not a valve job has been done will all affect pushrod length,” says Pochon of Lunati. “I recommend getting your cam, springs and getting everything all set up, then using a pushrod length checker tool and get your length right the first time. You want to be looking for about 20 to 40 thousandths of preload on a hydraulic roller set up. On the pushrod length checker there will be hash marks that will tell you what the preload is.”
Closing Thoughts
Pochon sums up the goal of any valvetrain upgrade, saying, “The biggest thing we try to focus on with the valvetrain in the LS engines is just do everything you can to keep it stable. Use a good pushrod, match your valve spring pressure to the needs of your cam, and combine it with a good, stable rocker arm. Go in as aggressive as you can on the lobe design and match it with your rocker arm ratio.” Pritcher adds, “Make sure all of your components match – if there is a weak link in your valvetrain eventually you’re going to have a very bad day.”
ANYWAY...
So say your stock pushrods 7.4 ish, you get a smaller base circle you need the 7.425 but you could alter that by shaving the deck ; or changing the lifters which require different preload; and that's alteration of the guesstimated length.... Assumptions do make a Ass out of U and Me....performance shops; cant assume someones going to shave the deck and use stock length pushrods because its going down .025 ish...and its going to be straight when the pushrod is angled like the valves … and the distance lost is not particularly linear in the geometry very close to .025 slightly..LOL and therefore say ;(your a aftermarket shop); recommend what they think someoneelses doing rebuilding their engine to use shaving the heads due to their being aluminum and redecking the surface for new head gaskets ;and to bump compression slightly.... , therefore stock length to work must be all factors considered and if the real stock pushrods were really 7.4 or...…………what ends up being recommended...……...by the shop for whatever they assume....

what ever ;
you get to the right amount of preload …….. WHICH THE PRELOAD DETERMINES WHAT THE RIGHT LENGTH IS...…. and if you cant get into the golden range of preload for the specific lifter which most like the .045 area up to .060 well you have to figure about 3/4 to 2/3 turn is with the right pushrod length from ZERO LASH/PRELOAD...…... IMO in that golden range...…... from most reading of those who did it right.....IMO and the ls3/7 lifters specs...… and so if you can get about that in turns added onto the zero lash to reach the right preload you know you have the right pushrod length and hopefully its at the damn 22 ft lb...…..

annoying I know much more so than a good old chevy setting lash on hydraulic lifters...….. but hey your going to have the pushrod constantly holding the lifter very slightly open that amount away from the ring you show broken on your lifter....and maybe a slightly longer pushrod would have held the lifter open at the right distance .025 more..and not hurt the lifter;( you may have had to over tighten the rocker arm to get lash #s preload.....on the wrong sized pushrod...…leaving some slop.....?.). Anyway just some rambling watching TV.....Good Luck just some thoughts.....

There were guys on here guys who used to over preload stuff with bad info on the internet at first when many did their own cams ...........................….as they as many never thought to do the math of the preload...the use of the ratio is critical, YOU cant just assume things like turning one turn on a .047-.048 ish thread movement due to thread pitch on the bolt is going to lash that much its not true the rocker pivots like a fulcrum so one turn is .047x1.7 for actual movement being .079 ….that's how much one turn would push against the lifter to make preload beyond the happy range of even the ls7 which has more preload recommended due to its 1.8 rockers.... at .070.....

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/In...20Geometry.pdf


Now finding out if the 7.4 pushrod you came with stock is actually 7.4 or if its theoretically with the rest of the end its missing turning round.... well that's where that one article says length is 7.385 so another reason like hell to measure along with a hundred others...… as I don't have a caliper that long..... and of course if one is called 7.4 and its less then the 7.425 being machined the same would also be that much less also of course so its kind of a MUTE point.....
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Last edited by christianchevell; 10-14-2018 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:39 PM   #18
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If your going to pull the head, put some clay in there and see how much PV clearance you have. It'll help with all the guess work
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Old 10-17-2018, 01:55 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by christianchevell View Post
7.875?///????????? Frankly always believed in going all in on new valves...…. I don't know the plunger area of the comp lifters but that's a long pushrod ….way long compared to 7.4...… and if your pulling the heads you have to do new gaskets and TTY bolts and check the baskets..heck I did new heads from summit, stock GMMP ported for 1400$, I hear dickey scoggins has the best deal for ones ported over the stock CNC, it does not take much to make freshening heads $$$$$ and new not that spendy… Something to think about, when I do springs someday I am going bushed trunnions on new rockers not just comp bearing upgrade, and or most likely just ditch my heads for GPI new smallbore ls7 style heads, different cam, MSD airforce , 102.... but that's someday....$$$$$ Springs I figure at 25k are trashed and going weaker according to my tuner and GMPP heads come with throw away beehives not even good for stock lift but the heads are NEW...and all new hollow stems ….

I think you mean 7.375.... And no the retainer that's just weird.... snap lock into the groove......longer makes it more likely to bottom out and keep the plunger part way down not even touch the retainer..... IMO you should have just used stock ls3/7 lifters like most or gone Morrel or something.... I think you may have just had a bum lifter..and should stay with the same length pushrod as before as that's whats recommended for stock geometry ….. here read the list of things on this pushrod ad showing what makes up the length needed....so many variables..... http://www.hawksmotorsports.com/push...2-ls3-l92-l99/

And frankly I would just most IMO replace the heads for new to be certain, and the lifters and go with new pushrods measured right.

Though some say stock is 7.4 its actually 7.385 I believe https://www.onallcylinders.com/2017/...ads-cam-specs/

And have read that 7.425 pretty common for pushrod length as the loss of the base circle... .025 from 7.425 = 7.4 close enough sort of to the stock 7.385..or 7.4 …..depending on where you read its like WTF ? . then you tighten 3/4 turn basically from zero lash which should be about 22 ft lbs to get in the more golden zone of preload ….. .050-.060

And that would be for not measuring basically just experience install.....

And the .047 thread pitch if with the " right pushrod length" is .047 distance one turn x 1.7 rocker arm ratio =.079 one turn net effective distance due to fulcrum effect of the rocker arm ratio so 3/4 of that's about .060 area.... so many did around that from zero lash to get the preload for stock type lifters with the pushrods the right length. So you may actually have been short on your pushrod length..... And not on a ls3 on a l99 I believe there are two lengths of pushrods one being different for the AFM lifters....if you had one of those... And that's my rambling, I used to use the EOIC method for my flat tappets on good old SBC stuff was like 1/2 turn on regular hydraulics to get the lash right on them ...real easy peezy….. but you would turn the push rods on them to find when it wont spin to find zero not rock the rocker back and forth …….


HOW can I explain it? MEH, here a LSX mag read from Comp Cam https://www.lsxmag.com/tech-stories/...ain-upgrades/:

Finally, Pritcher wishes that more people would pay more attention to their pushrod length – especially in the LS. “So often, when people do a cam swap in an LS engine, they will overlook making sure they are using the proper pushrod length and will in turn use the ‘go-to’ length that most folks typically throw in – a 7.4-inch pushrod. That will usually get you by but it doesn’t exactly get the lifter pre-load where it needs to be. Pushrod length is something you ALWAYS need to check because of different base circles used on various aftermarket cams. The typical hydraulic roller lifter likes to see anywhere from 0.03 to 0.06 worth of preload, so you’ve got a 0.03 window there to play with. We like to see you get your preload right in the middle of that range, right around 0.045.”
Since LS engines don’t have adjustable rockers, the pushrods are what determine the amount of preload. Most aftermarket cams have a smaller base circle, which in turn, means that you will need a little bit longer pushrod. In a situation like that, if you don’t get longer pushrods you won’t have enough preload and you will get some valvetrain noise.
“One of the biggest misconceptions about LS engines is that you can determine what length pushrods you need based solely on what components you have. The truth is that the only way to find out what length pushrod you need is to measure it for yourself because of all the variables that can come into play; the deck on the block, the deck on the heads, and whether or not a valve job has been done will all affect pushrod length,” says Pochon of Lunati. “I recommend getting your cam, springs and getting everything all set up, then using a pushrod length checker tool and get your length right the first time. You want to be looking for about 20 to 40 thousandths of preload on a hydraulic roller set up. On the pushrod length checker there will be hash marks that will tell you what the preload is.”
Closing Thoughts
Pochon sums up the goal of any valvetrain upgrade, saying, “The biggest thing we try to focus on with the valvetrain in the LS engines is just do everything you can to keep it stable. Use a good pushrod, match your valve spring pressure to the needs of your cam, and combine it with a good, stable rocker arm. Go in as aggressive as you can on the lobe design and match it with your rocker arm ratio.” Pritcher adds, “Make sure all of your components match – if there is a weak link in your valvetrain eventually you’re going to have a very bad day.”
ANYWAY...
So say your stock pushrods 7.4 ish, you get a smaller base circle you need the 7.425 but you could alter that by shaving the deck ; or changing the lifters which require different preload; and that's alteration of the guesstimated length.... Assumptions do make a Ass out of U and Me....performance shops; cant assume someones going to shave the deck and use stock length pushrods because its going down .025 ish...and its going to be straight when the pushrod is angled like the valves … and the distance lost is not particularly linear in the geometry very close to .025 slightly..LOL and therefore say ;(your a aftermarket shop); recommend what they think someoneelses doing rebuilding their engine to use shaving the heads due to their being aluminum and redecking the surface for new head gaskets ;and to bump compression slightly.... , therefore stock length to work must be all factors considered and if the real stock pushrods were really 7.4 or...…………what ends up being recommended...……...by the shop for whatever they assume....

what ever ;
you get to the right amount of preload …….. WHICH THE PRELOAD DETERMINES WHAT THE RIGHT LENGTH IS...…. and if you cant get into the golden range of preload for the specific lifter which most like the .045 area up to .060 well you have to figure about 3/4 to 2/3 turn is with the right pushrod length from ZERO LASH/PRELOAD...…... IMO in that golden range...…... from most reading of those who did it right.....IMO and the ls3/7 lifters specs...… and so if you can get about that in turns added onto the zero lash to reach the right preload you know you have the right pushrod length and hopefully its at the damn 22 ft lb...…..

annoying I know much more so than a good old chevy setting lash on hydraulic lifters...….. but hey your going to have the pushrod constantly holding the lifter very slightly open that amount away from the ring you show broken on your lifter....and maybe a slightly longer pushrod would have held the lifter open at the right distance .025 more..and not hurt the lifter;( you may have had to over tighten the rocker arm to get lash #s preload.....on the wrong sized pushrod...…leaving some slop.....?.). Anyway just some rambling watching TV.....Good Luck just some thoughts.....

There were guys on here guys who used to over preload stuff with bad info on the internet at first when many did their own cams ...........................….as they as many never thought to do the math of the preload...the use of the ratio is critical, YOU cant just assume things like turning one turn on a .047-.048 ish thread movement due to thread pitch on the bolt is going to lash that much its not true the rocker pivots like a fulcrum so one turn is .047x1.7 for actual movement being .079 ….that's how much one turn would push against the lifter to make preload beyond the happy range of even the ls7 which has more preload recommended due to its 1.8 rockers.... at .070.....

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/In...20Geometry.pdf


Now finding out if the 7.4 pushrod you came with stock is actually 7.4 or if its theoretically with the rest of the end its missing turning round.... well that's where that one article says length is 7.385 so another reason like hell to measure along with a hundred others...… as I don't have a caliper that long..... and of course if one is called 7.4 and its less then the 7.425 being machined the same would also be that much less also of course so its kind of a MUTE point.....
Thanks. That's a hell of alot of info. Lol. If there is one thing I have learned is that a big part of doing mods comes down to is luck if it's going to hold up. I've had it happened and many others on here have had it happen where reputable shop does the work and fails within 1k miles. Now I'm trying to learn all I can so I can do all my work myself for now on. Then I can't blame anyone else. I will be more careful when it comes to remove/replace, install, torque and measurements.

When I just installed my heads I used every way I could to check and recheck PR length. I used a PR checker, I double checked with the turn method and then used math method (I know it isn't totally accurate or ideal). After reading everything I will probably go back and recheck it all again. I don't know what would of made that clip pop off on the lifter but That has me worried for sure with the PR length and getting it right.

Just to clarify though I mistyped the PR length. It is the 7.375 not 7.875.

I can't get to the valvetrain for a bit cause installing this transmission is completely kicking my A$$ and is easily the hardest part of this rebuild. I been pulling my hair out.

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Old 10-17-2018, 02:00 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by rjs1le View Post
If your going to pull the head, put some clay in there and see how much PV clearance you have. It'll help with all the guess work
I already have the heads installed. The pistons are fly cut so I'm sure they have the measurements. I wouldn't bet a quarter on that though after dealing with that shop.

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Old 10-18-2018, 07:57 AM   #21
christianchevell
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With fly cuts most likely your in no worry territory, make sure the lifters are full of oil soaked is another trick you most likely used, and standard thought 7.40 length add base circle .025 = 7.425 then minus your decking of the heads, sometimes finding the perfect place to find ZERO is about feel.... I used always the old EOIC method for TDC. Good Luck! And since you've heated the heads the retorqueing of them that should have been done after a break in of the engine...… may have to be done again after heating again if having pulled heads I always torqued things in rounds of progressive tightening like stated in most manuals, then would after a heating cooling cycle go back to tighten headers and head bolts. Aluminum especially mated to cast iron blocks has a tendency to over the years walk the bolts on heads loose as it expands and contracts so much more than iron.
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