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Old 03-06-2011, 03:43 PM   #57
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I cannot believe you honestly believe this is true. With the amount of advertising and magazine exposure as well as the car of the year moniker, the car should have no less than a thousand pre-orders to meet up expectations. The Government is giving you money back to buy it. In a supply and demand capitalist economy, there is no demand for this which is the reason why it is not selling.



$10 a gallon gas will be the deciding factor perhaps for getting people in America to start to make the switch at some point in time as they have started to in Europe with gas prices around that high already.

I have been interested in the Volt since it was announced, and was on the waiting list for one. However it is too expensive currently for me to see any savings from it at all, even with the $7,500 tax break. Which is another reason, perhaps the second reason it is not selling, is the price. The price needs to drop in half for it to take off. I don't agree with the Government giving the car away at a grand loss, however looking at these pre-orders, and current sales, it is not looking good. The Ford Fiesta at $12,000 MSRP is a better deal if you want low cost with great gas mileage. That's what I would get instead of the VOlt in the current market.
First, the Volt was always intended for a slow ramp up. You don't have to trust Dragoneye (I generally do ) but maybe you'll believe me. I worked with the Volt team in it's infancy and considering it is only available in 6 or 7 states right now, I'm not even sure where you are coming from here. If GM had intended huge initial sales, it wouldn't have limited the roll out. GM has been rushing to ramp that up and actually get national availability in the calendar year. The original roll out didn't have that until much later.

And I don't disagree on the Fiesta, but at least get the number right. MSRP is $13,300, not 12,000. Your point is valid, you just don't need to make it by underestimating the MSRP. Bad enough to trying win this conversation as it is but you are giving me and extra $1,000 hurdle. LOL

But I'll say it again, the Volt isn't just about MPG. It's about not using fuel at all. But then also having the flexibility to go where you want when you need to. Even Nissan realized this and now they will let you check out an ICE vehicle when your Leaf won't do it. I know a guy at work that is literally using no gas. You can't do that in a Fiesta, or even a Prius. With a Volt you can.
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Old 03-06-2011, 03:49 PM   #58
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First, the Volt was always intended for a slow ramp up. You don't have to trust Dragoneye (I generally do ) but maybe you'll believe me. I worked with the Volt team in it's infancy and considering it is only available in 6 or 7 states right now, I'm not even sure where you are coming from here. If GM had intended huge initial sales, it wouldn't have limited the roll out. GM has been rushing to ramp that up and actually get national availability in the calendar year. The original roll out didn't have that until much later.

And I don't disagree on the Fiesta, but at least get the number right. MSRP is $13,300, not 12,000. Your point is valid, you just don't need to make it by underestimating the MSRP. Bad enough to trying win this conversation as it is but you are giving me and extra $1,000 hurdle. LOL

But I'll say it again, the Volt isn't just about MPG. It's about not using fuel at all. But then also having the flexibility to go where you want when you need to. Even Nissan realized this and now they will let you check out an ICE vehicle when your Leaf won't do it. I know a guy at work that is literally using no gas. You can't do that in a Fiesta, or even a Prius. With a Volt you can.
Instead of typing up my own post with 75% of the same points, I'll just use:



(And thanks, 3! )

EDIT: There one more point I'll make...

The Volt is just as valuable in terms of bragging rights and PR as it is in actual sales volume....
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Old 03-06-2011, 05:53 PM   #59
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i can't believe people are actually arguing about the volt, i thought this thread would die quickly after the first counter argument.....

Heres another way to think about it:

The Mustang sold 3600 units in february, or roughly 74 sales per state, given that the volt was available in 4 states, that comes out to 295 sales. that would come out to around 100 sales if i limited it to GT models. hmm a number much lower than the Volt's sales....

for the camaro it would come out to about 500 sales when limited to 4 states. when limited to the SS model the number would probably be about 200.... lower than the Volt.

so in theory the brand new volt is outselling the more affordable muscle cars. i would say the volt is selling WELL
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Old 03-06-2011, 06:20 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by lil_chef View Post
i can't believe people are actually arguing about the volt, i thought this thread would die quickly after the first counter argument.....

Heres another way to think about it:

The Mustang sold 3600 units in february, or roughly 74 sales per state, given that the volt was available in 4 states, that comes out to 295 sales. that would come out to around 100 sales if i limited it to GT models. hmm a number much lower than the Volt's sales....

for the camaro it would come out to about 500 sales when limited to 4 states. when limited to the SS model the number would probably be about 200.... lower than the Volt.

so in theory the brand new volt is outselling the more affordable muscle cars. i would say the volt is selling WELL
Now just stop that. Logic is not allowed. Besides, your gonna piss off all the haters.
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Old 03-06-2011, 07:07 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by lil_chef View Post
i can't believe people are actually arguing about the volt, i thought this thread would die quickly after the first counter argument.....

Heres another way to think about it:

The Mustang sold 3600 units in february, or roughly 74 sales per state, given that the volt was available in 4 states, that comes out to 295 sales. that would come out to around 100 sales if i limited it to GT models. hmm a number much lower than the Volt's sales....

for the camaro it would come out to about 500 sales when limited to 4 states. when limited to the SS model the number would probably be about 200.... lower than the Volt.

so in theory the brand new volt is outselling the more affordable muscle cars. i would say the volt is selling WELL
That's a perspective I hadn't considered!
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Old 03-06-2011, 08:04 PM   #62
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First, the Volt was always intended for a slow ramp up. You don't have to trust Dragoneye (I generally do ) but maybe you'll believe me. I worked with the Volt team in it's infancy and considering it is only available in 6 or 7 states right now, I'm not even sure where you are coming from here. If GM had intended huge initial sales, it wouldn't have limited the roll out. GM has been rushing to ramp that up and actually get national availability in the calendar year. The original roll out didn't have that until much later.

And I don't disagree on the Fiesta, but at least get the number right. MSRP is $13,300, not 12,000. Your point is valid, you just don't need to make it by underestimating the MSRP. Bad enough to trying win this conversation as it is but you are giving me and extra $1,000 hurdle. LOL

But I'll say it again, the Volt isn't just about MPG. It's about not using fuel at all. But then also having the flexibility to go where you want when you need to. Even Nissan realized this and now they will let you check out an ICE vehicle when your Leaf won't do it. I know a guy at work that is literally using no gas. You can't do that in a Fiesta, or even a Prius. With a Volt you can.
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Old 03-06-2011, 09:06 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
First, the Volt was always intended for a slow ramp up. You don't have to trust Dragoneye (I generally do ) but maybe you'll believe me. I worked with the Volt team in it's infancy and considering it is only available in 6 or 7 states right now, I'm not even sure where you are coming from here. If GM had intended huge initial sales, it wouldn't have limited the roll out. GM has been rushing to ramp that up and actually get national availability in the calendar year. The original roll out didn't have that until much later.

And I don't disagree on the Fiesta, but at least get the number right. MSRP is $13,300, not 12,000. Your point is valid, you just don't need to make it by underestimating the MSRP. Bad enough to trying win this conversation as it is but you are giving me and extra $1,000 hurdle. LOL

But I'll say it again, the Volt isn't just about MPG. It's about not using fuel at all. But then also having the flexibility to go where you want when you need to. Even Nissan realized this and now they will let you check out an ICE vehicle when your Leaf won't do it. I know a guy at work that is literally using no gas. You can't do that in a Fiesta, or even a Prius. With a Volt you can.
I don't work for the car industry and I don't work for Ford. I made a simple mistake on the MSRP of the Fiesta. I was out helping my wife's mother look for a car and there are multiple incentives that can be stacked right now which brings the price down on the Fiesta to around $12,000.

As for the Volt being sold in a few states, weren't they pre-ordered months in advance like the Camaro? If there was more of a demand, GM would have had many more sold and the number would be over 500 perhaps or more being shipped. Is it not true anyone can order a Volt from any dealer already? I'm hoping the Volt does well, however I like driving muscle cars as most of you. I do not want to be paying $10 to $15 a gallon on gas and be forced to buy a Volt or any other hybrid in order to survive. The price is too high for the Volt, and what the small numbers tell me is that not enough "upper class" American's are interested enough to place a pre-order for a Volt. This shows lack of interest and with all the advertising spent on the Volt so far, it hasn't been enough. In other words, even if each dealer gets a Volt in the showroom, people are not flocking over to test drive them. The price is going to have to drop before Research and development costs are made up due to people buying it at the current price premium. And I do not like the idea of our taxpayer money going into a program that is losing lots of money and will continue to lose for many years to come. and GM will lose money if the price is dropped in order to sell more of them without first making up a big chunk in early sales.
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Old 03-06-2011, 09:20 PM   #64
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And I don't disagree on the Fiesta, but at least get the number right. MSRP is $13,300, not 12,000. Your point is valid, you just don't need to make it by underestimating the MSRP. Bad enough to trying win this conversation as it is but you are giving me and extra $1,000 hurdle. LOL

Just for the record to get any content of consequence on a Feista you have to go with an SE. The SE with manual is about 15k, 16K with auto. Also switching to the hatch costs another grand. The Fiesta I bought is an SE sedan with the driver's convience package and SYNC, its MSRP was $16,700.
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Old 03-06-2011, 09:28 PM   #65
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As for the Volt being sold in a few states, weren't they pre-ordered months in advance like the Camaro? If there was more of a demand, GM would have had many more sold and the number would be over 500 perhaps or more being shipped. Is it not true anyone can order a Volt from any dealer already?
It is true...but the initial plan for production was only something like 10,000 cars...maybe 12,000. I've read they're trying to increase that, but battery supply is tight this first year. I'm sure allocation plans reflect that.

And besides...most buyers still think they HAVE to bring their vehicle into the dealer they bought it from to get repaired...how many do you think realize they can order from out of town? Let alone out of state.....


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The price is too high for the Volt, and what the small numbers tell me is that not enough "upper class" American's are interested enough to place a pre-order for a Volt. This shows lack of interest and with all the advertising spent on the Volt so far, it hasn't been enough. In other words, even if each dealer gets a Volt in the showroom, people are not flocking over to test drive them. The price is going to have to drop before Research and development costs are made up due to people buying it at the current price premium.
How do you know who's flocking to test drive them? Over 250,000 have expressed a serious interest in the vehicles, I wouldn't exactly call that a "lack of"...so I'd hope half of them at least want to actually go see/drive the car now that it's out. The buying part, as we're aware...is a little more difficult given the slow, methodical release schedule.

As for price...with the tax incentive...the cost is around $32,500, and a similarly equipped mid-sized sedan from any manufacturer is going to be darn close to that (the Volt is "loaded"!) Then factor in the fuel savings (or total elimination), and the cost becomes equivalent very shortly into its lifespan. Again, if we're comparing similarly-equipped cars. If that's not convincing enough, consider it has a lease rate of $350 a month. The same as a seriously inferior Leaf, and not very much higher than a typical rate nowadays....I understand though, that not everyone likes to lease.

The Volt suffers from a severe case of sticker shock, that's about it.

You can expect price to drop respectably in coming years. Like all consumer electronics. The cost of the battery itself could get you into a brand new Cruze...that will come down once as the technology matures.
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Old 03-07-2011, 07:12 AM   #66
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Although I don't doubt that the volt is worth what you pay for it, I think they missed the boat a little on this and would have done better with a car that was priced about 8k-10k less .. we will see as gas prices rise, these will start selling a little better while prices are up.

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Old 03-07-2011, 02:27 PM   #67
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It is true...but the initial plan for production was only something like 10,000 cars...maybe 12,000. I've read they're trying to increase that, but battery supply is tight this first year. I'm sure allocation plans reflect that.

And besides...most buyers still think they HAVE to bring their vehicle into the dealer they bought it from to get repaired...how many do you think realize they can order from out of town? Let alone out of state.....



How do you know who's flocking to test drive them? Over 250,000 have expressed a serious interest in the vehicles, I wouldn't exactly call that a "lack of"...so I'd hope half of them at least want to actually go see/drive the car now that it's out. The buying part, as we're aware...is a little more difficult given the slow, methodical release schedule.

As for price...with the tax incentive...the cost is around $32,500, and a similarly equipped mid-sized sedan from any manufacturer is going to be darn close to that (the Volt is "loaded"!) Then factor in the fuel savings (or total elimination), and the cost becomes equivalent very shortly into its lifespan. Again, if we're comparing similarly-equipped cars. If that's not convincing enough, consider it has a lease rate of $350 a month. The same as a seriously inferior Leaf, and not very much higher than a typical rate nowadays....I understand though, that not everyone likes to lease.

The Volt suffers from a severe case of sticker shock, that's about it.

You can expect price to drop respectably in coming years. Like all consumer electronics. The cost of the battery itself could get you into a brand new Cruze...that will come down once as the technology matures.
If the price drops by $10,000, and the tax incentive is still in place, it will sell a lot of vehicles without a doubt in the current economy with gas at $4 a gallon.

Perhaps the demand would outpace the supply of 10,000 vehicles per year if the price was $22,000 after incentives and we would see ridiculous dealer markups and so forth bringing it back up to $30,000 if demand was that high. I think having dealer markups are better than having the MSRP initially be so high. At least it could be advertised at the lower price point and more would have the incentive to go and test drive it. Currently I do not even want to go and test drive it since it is too high a price in comparison for what you are getting in my opinion. Also, I was one of those 250,000 who was interested and put my e-mail on the GM website as well as letting Eric Hall know to give me info on the Volt's price before it was announced.
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Old 03-07-2011, 03:57 PM   #68
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Currently I do not even want to go and test drive it since it is too high a price in comparison for what you are getting in my opinion.
?
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Old 03-07-2011, 04:07 PM   #69
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True...but it can be recycled. Plus, thanks to consumer electronics -- the infrastructure is already developed and in-place.

I don't anticipate Li-Ion batteries will survive more than 10-12 years from now. There are already more promising technologies on the horizon...but for the moment...it's just good to know (to me anyways), they can be recycled (either salvaged, or re-purposed) and won't require any infrastructure development to support it (like hydrogen......).
Just build me a volt with the batteries in series and a KERS system so I can have 120hp with an extra 300hp on tap for 5 seconds every trip Uber v-tak.

All joking aside, the problem is this technology just isn't being produced on a level that the price can be lowered AT ALL. When you're marketing a car that is essentially designed to save money (aren't enough tree huggers to float it), selling to the middle class just isn't going to work unless gas prices are astronomical. Don't let the "fair & balanced" media fool you, we have some of the cheapest gas prices of any modern nation. The people that really need to save money are buying used or sub-20k economy cars on low interest rates. The majority of the target market for the volt can afford to pay a little bit more for gas and when you've got all the cool, fun cars of today, especially when some of them are getting 30+mpg on ICE's an EV just doesn't sound that appealing. It's going to take time for people to accept them and hell we may have a better solution by then. For now, the Volt is doing OK, not great, but OK. The next one will be cheaper and better and will hopefully appeal to a broader crowd. IMO Tesla's new sedan will have a hugely positive effect on the EV image. My .02.
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Old 03-07-2011, 05:22 PM   #70
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Just build me a volt with the batteries in series and a KERS system so I can have 120hp with an extra 300hp on tap for 5 seconds every trip Uber v-tak.

All joking aside, the problem is this technology just isn't being produced on a level that the price can be lowered AT ALL. When you're marketing a car that is essentially designed to save money (aren't enough tree huggers to float it), selling to the middle class just isn't going to work unless gas prices are astronomical. Don't let the "fair & balanced" media fool you, we have some of the cheapest gas prices of any modern nation. The people that really need to save money are buying used or sub-20k economy cars on low interest rates. The majority of the target market for the volt can afford to pay a little bit more for gas and when you've got all the cool, fun cars of today, especially when some of them are getting 30+mpg on ICE's an EV just doesn't sound that appealing. It's going to take time for people to accept them and hell we may have a better solution by then. For now, the Volt is doing OK, not great, but OK. The next one will be cheaper and better and will hopefully appeal to a broader crowd. IMO Tesla's new sedan will have a hugely positive effect on the EV image. My .02.
Why will the Tesla have such a huge impact? It's $10,000 more than a Volt and isn't an EREV. I haven't found anyone yet that thinks the claimed range is even romotely possible without a 300 mile downhill downwind cycle.

Granted it is pretty, as is the Fisker design, but just not sure how that does any better than the Leaf. But if you simply mean by being an ATTRACTIVE EV alternative, I'd agree.
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