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Old 10-18-2018, 10:55 AM   #169
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Also curious on this dyno from the LS3 intake shootout Hotrod did earlier in the year. It certainly looks like this change lost torque didn't it? But even if I am wrong there, it definitely doesn't look like it will be of benefit to someone who is on the street 99.9% of the time




So maybe I should say "lose down low and midrange" as I'm not sure what you consider each. But mine sure spends a lot of time in the 2-5k range. Why is it so wrong that I am curious how this LOD performs at a lower range compared to a ported & RM intake?
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:02 AM   #170
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To me, the ability to tip into the throttle without a downshift when cruising in the top gears at 2000-2500rpm to climb a grade or complete a pass is something I enjoy. But I wouldn't say I'm hung up on it, it's a sacrifice I'll make if needed. I certainly realize that with fixed valve timing events and fixed intake volume and length you will give up performance in one range to improve another. Big NA pushrod power definitely comes with baggage.

I would posit that in a daily street driven application there is probably a point (different for every individual) where they feel they're giving up "too much" of the bottom end and drivability where they spend most of their time for gains in the upper rev range where they rarely spend any time at all. For every "tunnel ram and 3/4 cam" guy there is gonna be a "dual plane and rv cam" guy.

My comments in this thread are really just because I find it very interesting, and like to see and understand how different parts combinations impact the results not just of the peak output, but what the implications are across the entire operating range. Bottom line for me would be, if I can afford it, and it makes the car faster, I'm down, sign me up! I'll gladly give up some bottom for some top.
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:05 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by go_go_gadget88 View Post
Also curious on this dyno from the LS3 intake shootout Hotrod did earlier in the year. It certainly looks like this change lost torque didn't it? But even if I am wrong there, it definitely doesn't look like it will be of benefit to someone who is on the street 99.9% of the time




So maybe I should say "lose down low and midrange" as I'm not sure what you consider each. But mine sure spends a lot of time in the 2-5k range. Why is it so wrong that I am curious how this LOD performs at a lower range compared to a ported & RM intake?
What article is that from? Looks like the Holley mid ram was just down across the board - I'd like to know more about what the heads/cam combination was.
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:21 AM   #172
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To me, the ability to tip into the throttle without a downshift when cruising in the top gears at 2000-2500rpm to climb a grade or complete a pass is something I enjoy. But I wouldn't say I'm hung up on it, it's a sacrifice I'll make if needed. I certainly realize that with fixed valve timing events and fixed intake volume and length you will give up performance in one range to improve another. Big NA pushrod power definitely comes with baggage.

I would posit that in a daily street driven application there is probably a point (different for every individual) where they feel they're giving up "too much" of the bottom end and drivability where they spend most of their time for gains in the upper rev range where they rarely spend any time at all. For every "tunnel ram and 3/4 cam" guy there is gonna be a "dual plane and rv cam" guy.

My comments in this thread are really just because I find it very interesting, and like to see and understand how different parts combinations impact the results not just of the peak output, but what the implications are across the entire operating range. Bottom line for me would be, if I can afford it, and it makes the car faster, I'm down, sign me up! I'll gladly give up some bottom for some top.
This is basically what I am getting at as well. The passing point really hits home. I was cruising down the highway and got stuck behind a tractor doing ~65 (which was the limit but I usually run 70-71). We started going up a hill, and with my car in 6th, it literally didn't have the power to maintain speed, and started slowing down.

Not that I can't deal with it, but it was definitely eye opening to just how much these cars DON'T have down low. And this was before the gears, so I am certain it would be better now. But, my 2003 golf has no issues lugging up a hill without a downshift, for comparison sake. It actually feels faster passing without downshifting.


Now, is this an acceptable tradeoff for how much more top end power I have? Absolutely. Am I inclined to make it much worse to get a few more up top? Not really, but I would give up SOME. Hence why I want to see results. I don't have as much money to burn as other members probably do. $1500 is a lot of money to put down for something that may not benefit my driving experience.



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What article is that from? Looks like the Holley mid ram was just down across the board - I'd like to know more about what the heads/cam combination was.
Here's the link to the article, and the specs on the motor. Stock heads, unfortunately. I actually got to speak with the writer before the results came out (they were just finishing testing at the time) and after this came out, I knew why he said "don't get in a hurry to swap your stock one out."


https://www.hotrod.com/articles/gian...id-92mm-tb-jpg
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:35 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by go_go_gadget88 View Post
This is basically what I am getting at as well. The passing point really hits home. I was cruising down the highway and got stuck behind a tractor doing ~65 (which was the limit but I usually run 70-71). We started going up a hill, and with my car in 6th, it literally didn't have the power to maintain speed, and started slowing down.

Not that I can't deal with it, but it was definitely eye opening to just how much these cars DON'T have down low. And this was before the gears, so I am certain it would be better now. But, my 2003 golf has no issues lugging up a hill without a downshift, for comparison sake. It actually feels faster passing without downshifting.


Now, is this an acceptable tradeoff for how much more top end power I have? Absolutely. Am I inclined to make it much worse to get a few more up top? Not really, but I would give up SOME. Hence why I want to see results. I don't have as much money to burn as other members probably do. $1500 is a lot of money to put down for something that may not benefit my driving experience.





Here's the link to the article, and the specs on the motor. Stock heads, unfortunately. I actually got to speak with the writer before the results came out (they were just finishing testing at the time) and after this came out, I knew why he said "don't get in a hurry to swap your stock one out."


https://www.hotrod.com/articles/gian...id-92mm-tb-jpg
Curious to know if the Golf in a Turbo?

If so the engine would be adding a loading going up the hill spinning the turbo faster and dishing out a tad bit more of boost giving more grunt.
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:46 AM   #174
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Curious to know if the Golf in a Turbo?

If so the engine would be adding a loading going up the hill spinning the turbo faster and dishing out a tad bit more of boost giving more grunt.
Yes it is, and I am sure the turbo helps a lot! It's not at peak boost at that speed in top gear, but it is in it for sure.

I guess the point I was making is that seat of the pants wise, my ~150whp car feels quicker passing with no downshift, than my 500+whp car

Obviously lining them up, I would absolutely destroy the golf with my Camaro. Wouldn't even be remotely close. But just shows that if you lose too much down low, and it CAN lead to a less enjoyable street car experience.
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Old 10-18-2018, 12:15 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by go_go_gadget88 View Post
Yes it is, and I am sure the turbo helps a lot! It's not at peak boost at that speed in top gear, but it is in it for sure.

I guess the point I was making is that seat of the pants wise, my ~150whp car feels quicker passing with no downshift, than my 500+whp car

Obviously lining them up, I would absolutely destroy the golf with my Camaro. Wouldn't even be remotely close. But just shows that if you lose too much down low, and it CAN lead to a less enjoyable street car experience.
No I get what you are saying.

I was just making the point that when loaded the turbos do give a little push. My car is TT and I typically don't downshift when I pass. I can make up to 2-4 psi of boost while passing which roughly 25HP additional per psi.
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Old 10-18-2018, 12:27 PM   #176
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This is basically what I am getting at as well. The passing point really hits home. I was cruising down the highway and got stuck behind a tractor doing ~65 (which was the limit but I usually run 70-71). We started going up a hill, and with my car in 6th, it literally didn't have the power to maintain speed, and started slowing down.

Not that I can't deal with it, but it was definitely eye opening to just how much these cars DON'T have down low. And this was before the gears, so I am certain it would be better now. But, my 2003 golf has no issues lugging up a hill without a downshift, for comparison sake. It actually feels faster passing without downshifting.


Now, is this an acceptable tradeoff for how much more top end power I have? Absolutely. Am I inclined to make it much worse to get a few more up top? Not really, but I would give up SOME. Hence why I want to see results. I don't have as much money to burn as other members probably do. $1500 is a lot of money to put down for something that may not benefit my driving experience.





Here's the link to the article, and the specs on the motor. Stock heads, unfortunately. I actually got to speak with the writer before the results came out (they were just finishing testing at the time) and after this came out, I knew why he said "don't get in a hurry to swap your stock one out."


https://www.hotrod.com/articles/gian...id-92mm-tb-jpg
That article was a great read - thanks for that. My take-away is damn, the stock LS3 intake is really good. I think they really missed an obvious test in there, they needed a rod-mod and ported stocker to compare to.

I was interested to read you actually can't maintain speed at 65mph with enough of a grade in 10th. Maybe it's the 4.10's making just enough difference in the rpm, but I can pull grades and still accelerate from 65mph in top gear with my car. It's no rocket ship in that condition, but it doesn't struggle. The SS3 is even more cam that what you have there, so it's not that - it's probably mostly the gearing I guess.
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Old 10-18-2018, 12:37 PM   #177
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That article was a great read - thanks for that. My take-away is damn, the stock LS3 intake is really good. I think they really missed an obvious test in there, they needed a rod-mod and ported stocker to compare to.

I was interested to read you actually can't maintain speed at 65mph with enough of a grade in 10th. Maybe it's the 4.10's making just enough difference in the rpm, but I can pull grades and still accelerate from 65mph in top gear with my car. It's no rocket ship in that condition, but it doesn't struggle. The SS3 is even more cam that what you have there, so it's not that - it's probably mostly the gearing I guess.
No problem! I liked it as well, but I agree I would have loved to see how a worked over stock one compared to the others. Would have also loved to see the LOD intake as well, but such is life. The GM guys sure did great with this stock piece though!

And keep in mind, that was with cam, but before the 3.91s. I forsee the car doing much better now, I just haven't been on that particular stretch of highway to see since I swapped diffs! I actually thought our cams were pretty similar (never could find specs, but figured SS3 was close to TSP stage 3, and the SS4 no flycut was close to the TSP F35), in which case your 4.10s would help even more. That's just even more perceived low end in your favor.

Honestly, if I wasn't planning to go boosted, I would be wishing I had done 4.10's instead of 3.91s. These are really what this car should have just came with from the factory! It can certainly use more gear on my current NA setup
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Old 10-18-2018, 01:37 PM   #178
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No problem! I liked it as well, but I agree I would have loved to see how a worked over stock one compared to the others. Would have also loved to see the LOD intake as well, but such is life. The GM guys sure did great with this stock piece though!

And keep in mind, that was with cam, but before the 3.91s. I forsee the car doing much better now, I just haven't been on that particular stretch of highway to see since I swapped diffs! I actually thought our cams were pretty similar (never could find specs, but figured SS3 was close to TSP stage 3, and the SS4 no flycut was close to the TSP F35), in which case your 4.10s would help even more. That's just even more perceived low end in your favor.

Honestly, if I wasn't planning to go boosted, I would be wishing I had done 4.10's instead of 3.91s. These are really what this car should have just came with from the factory! It can certainly use more gear on my current NA setup
Ahh, stock gears makes sense, that would be a pretty low RPM at 65mph. The SS3 is bigger than the F35 in terms of duration and lift - they have a nearly identical amount of overlap. I wouldn't even try to be in 6th gear with stock gears at that speed in my car, it would not be happy!
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Old 10-18-2018, 01:38 PM   #179
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I think your taking what i am saying to much to heart. Your car when you purchased it would it not accelerate in 6th gear on the interstate to pass? In a two lane passing situation I would tend to use 4th to just get by as quick and safe as possible. My stock cam stock heads 5th gen did go mid 11s @120. I swapped to a mid runner fast recently to go after a record as I needed the additional 25 hp from 6600-7000 to help pull mph through the traps. From what I have gathered the LOD is going to work more like an old school tunnel ram where the air is just naturally falling into the head instead of having to draw it through a runner. The only reason I stated about the results of low end torque on the dyno is the expectation is not realistic. You drive down the interstate at 80mph your at around 1400-1600rpm stock gear and with 4.10s your still just barely over 2200rpm. I can currently drive in 6th at 35mph and accelerate just fine. I stick the cam in and well that is going to change because I fully expect it to surge a little below 1500 because that is what a light clutch decent size cam will do. Sticking a cam in a basically stock 5th gen is pretty counter productive. You will then be giving the car less torque as you have no supporting mods for the cam. But if a V6 camaro can move then a cam with no support will too. But a proper bolt on car will flat spank that car that has just a cam.
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Old 10-18-2018, 02:37 PM   #180
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Who runs at wide open throttle at 2500RPM where all this magical my car wont move torque is lost? I mean really people get so hung up this. You want real comparisons........ I guess I will talk to my friend and see if i can take a stroll at 1500RPM and log it in 4th through 6th accelerating to highway speeds and set the cruise control.
are we talking you wont lose tq with the rod mod intake or any intake?
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Old 10-18-2018, 03:11 PM   #181
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I think your taking what i am saying to much to heart. Your car when you purchased it would it not accelerate in 6th gear on the interstate to pass? In a two lane passing situation I would tend to use 4th to just get by as quick and safe as possible. My stock cam stock heads 5th gen did go mid 11s @120. I swapped to a mid runner fast recently to go after a record as I needed the additional 25 hp from 6600-7000 to help pull mph through the traps. From what I have gathered the LOD is going to work more like an old school tunnel ram where the air is just naturally falling into the head instead of having to draw it through a runner. The only reason I stated about the results of low end torque on the dyno is the expectation is not realistic. You drive down the interstate at 80mph your at around 1400-1600rpm stock gear and with 4.10s your still just barely over 2200rpm. I can currently drive in 6th at 35mph and accelerate just fine. I stick the cam in and well that is going to change because I fully expect it to surge a little below 1500 because that is what a light clutch decent size cam will do. Sticking a cam in a basically stock 5th gen is pretty counter productive. You will then be giving the car less torque as you have no supporting mods for the cam. But if a V6 camaro can move then a cam with no support will too. But a proper bolt on car will flat spank that car that has just a cam.
Well, yeah? You seemed to be making a joke out of something that is actually at least a slight concern to me. I can't even remotely drive my car @35 in 6th gear even with the gears. Obviously some of that is the cam profile though, but it really didn't like it 100% stock. That's awesome you could pick up 25 going with the mid runner fast! Do you have a dyno that shows your car with the ported rod mod, vs going to that fast? Or even one of your stock intake vs the Ported/Rod mod? Also, I am guessing that a lighter car like a vette would not be bothered quite as bad on the bottom end either, just because it's a lot less weight to lug around?

And I agree the LOD seems a lot like a tunnel ram. Which means I question how I would like it RIGHT NOW compared to a ported/rod mod intake, but I imagine it would definitely be the no brainier choice if I end up sticking a procharger on this thing at some point! But as of now that's an unknown, and will likely be NA for a while still. Totally looking forward to your results getting to run this thing on a dyno and track!

And I didn't stick a cam in a stock car, I had headers and an intake first! Then did cam, ported TB, and ported heads at the same time, knowing I would get gears soon after. I can't speak to a v6, but I am telling you, without the gears this cammed car would DECELERATE at WOT at 65mph in 6th if it was going uphill. I usually downshift to pass too, so it's not like it was the end of the world. And for the comments about low end loss not realistic....I'm not saying there should be NONE. I would give up 15 @2500rpm for 20+ @6500, for sure. But I wouldn't want to lose 40 to get 10, if that makes sense? Look at some of the intakes on that shootout I posted. Some of them would probably be great if I wanted to get another 1/10th off my time, but horrible for something that's almost all street
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Old 10-18-2018, 03:15 PM   #182
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are we talking you wont lose tq with the rod mod intake or any intake?
The theory is with the shorter runner intakes the car looses torque. This is true in a sense that down low you will sacrifice some but it just moves that to the upper rpm where you want to carry more power for more rpm and keep you in the meat of your power band. If you want to drive Mrs Daisy around 1200-3000 rpm buy a diesel truck lol If you are swapping a cam to sound good in the McDonalds drive through and not beat on the car dont buy supporting mods and get thrashed by 4 valve mustangs. We all have to have purpose in hot rods, daily drivers ( I put 20k miles on my C6 since last July) race cars. Some folks like to put dress up parts and wheels on the car. What ever makes you happy. Me I like a combination I can drive coast to coast and thrash just about anything I come across between point a and b. I can not wait to get this intake on my car!
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