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Old 02-13-2018, 07:26 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
What are you even talking about? You have model 3s? How does the industry "actually" work? Are you inferring the subsidies that Ford and GM got? Or the outdated dealer-model? I think Ford and GM had their a$$es handed to them in the 80s and 90s and early 2000s and they are only just realizing it now that information is so easy to come by. That's why they are finally able to make decent cars, vs. the "american car" being a joke compared to anything else across the world. And if they are looking forward to the future, it's going to happen again.
The Industry actually has quality standards, however varied...and in reality, Tesla falls very far behind. This has been known for years, but Tesla owners are a very proud bunch and won't easily admit to it. Their manufacturing processes aren't what they should be to ensure quality.

http://www.thedrive.com/news/18218/a...kia-in-the-90s

A company that can't sustain itself, even one as small as Tesla, has no business playing in this field...especially considering such criticisms were lodged against the other US manufacturers in the early 2000s.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...531-story.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla...roblem-2017-11

https://seekingalpha.com/article/412...rally-bankrupt

https://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...ing#gs.ec2LjMQ

Finally, when you promise to build an EV for the masses...it better be for the masses, and attainable! Yet the "outdated" behemoth GM managed to beat them to the punch with a better product, after starting the process later...

http://www.businessinsider.com/chevy...model-3-2018-1

http://www.motortrend.com/news/chevr...r-of-the-year/

Are GM, and Ford pillars of perfection? Hell no...Ford's engineers are lacking, and GM's advertising is...well, vanilla; and they both almost found themselves in a pit too deep to dig out of. But....Musk is no genius businessman and Tesla is far from the successful model for a car company of the future...

He's an inventor and futurist...Tesla is a popular, but small car company in big trouble.
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:01 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham View Post
The Industry actually has quality standards....
So the issue is that they have is meeting their production goals, well no kidding, we all know that. I thought you had some data on Model 3s on the road with quality problems or something.

Tesla has done something incredible by starting up an entirely new auto-maker and getting EVs on the road that everyday people can use. That doesn't mean they are for everyONE, but they are out there being used, even here in Alaska. You might irrationally hate them, but they work. That's the big difference between EVs as a concept and what some of the automakers have tinkered with over the years, and the reality today. Obviously, Tesla has to deliver on the Model 3s, we all know this. It could be make-or-break, but what they've done so far is nothing short of amazing. The way they generate cash is no different from any other start-up, but it has to transition to sustainability and they have to be able to bring these new technologies/products to the market. I could sit here and bring up the huge subsidies that Ford and GM got, but I feel that wouldn't be a very good use of my time, you can look it up yourself.
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:10 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
So the issue is that they have is meeting their production goals, well no kidding, we all know that. I thought you had some data on Model 3s on the road with quality problems or something.

Tesla has done something incredible by starting up an entirely new auto-maker and getting EVs on the road that everyday people can use. That doesn't mean they are for everyONE, but they are out there being used, even here in Alaska. You might irrationally hate them, but they work. That's the big difference between EVs as a concept and what some of the automakers have tinkered with over the years, and the reality today. Obviously, Tesla has to deliver on the Model 3s, we all know this. It could be make-or-break, but what they've done so far is nothing short of amazing. The way they generate cash is no different from any other start-up, but it has to transition to sustainability and they have to be able to bring these new technologies/products to the market. I could sit here and bring up the huge subsidies that Ford and GM got, but I feel that wouldn't be a very good use of my time, you can look it up yourself.
Elon....is that you?
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:40 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
So the issue is that they have is meeting their production goals, well no kidding, we all know that. I thought you had some data on Model 3s on the road with quality problems or something.

Tesla has done something incredible by starting up an entirely new auto-maker and getting EVs on the road that everyday people can use. That doesn't mean they are for everyONE, but they are out there being used, even here in Alaska. You might irrationally hate them, but they work. That's the big difference between EVs as a concept and what some of the automakers have tinkered with over the years, and the reality today. Obviously, Tesla has to deliver on the Model 3s, we all know this. It could be make-or-break, but what they've done so far is nothing short of amazing. The way they generate cash is no different from any other start-up, but it has to transition to sustainability and they have to be able to bring these new technologies/products to the market. I could sit here and bring up the huge subsidies that Ford and GM got, but I feel that wouldn't be a very good use of my time, you can look it up yourself.
As if Tesla hasn't or isn't getting subsidies from state's or the FedGov?
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:14 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
So the issue is that they have is meeting their production goals, well no kidding, we all know that. I thought you had some data on Model 3s on the road with quality problems or something.

Tesla has done something incredible by starting up an entirely new auto-maker and getting EVs on the road that everyday people can use. That doesn't mean they are for everyONE, but they are out there being used, even here in Alaska. You might irrationally hate them, but they work. That's the big difference between EVs as a concept and what some of the automakers have tinkered with over the years, and the reality today. Obviously, Tesla has to deliver on the Model 3s, we all know this. It could be make-or-break, but what they've done so far is nothing short of amazing. The way they generate cash is no different from any other start-up, but it has to transition to sustainability and they have to be able to bring these new technologies/products to the market. I could sit here and bring up the huge subsidies that Ford and GM got, but I feel that wouldn't be a very good use of my time, you can look it up yourself.
With all due respect...you're awful getting defensive about this...

Please read back on some of my posts...I don't *hate* Tesla. I see them for what they are...a small automaker making some big news, but small sales. And their balance sheet is terrifying. They have made some incredible strides in EV development. But they haven't been the only ones to do so...nor were they the first.

I do challenge your statement that they build EVs "that everybody can use"...because they started business producing the roadster...an extremely niche car that cost $100,000. Their next model was the S...another $100,000 car. with any options...and then the X, an $80,000 vehicle. While they function like a car should (most of the time)...I wouldn't praise them for building the everyman's EV. The Nissan Leaf and Volt made it to market years ago as $~40k-$50k EVs. Even the EV1, the industry's first attempt at a modern electric car, started with a price equivalent to $55k today. No, it didn't succeed in the marketplace...but we're talking about affordable EVs...until Model 3....Tesla wasn't it.

Then there's the Model III...which is not the *first* affordable EV as we know it; the Chevy Bolt beat them to the punch...and they can't seem to handle the stresses of true volume mass production. So sure, it's not news and we all know that, yes - but that's a BIG deal.

The difference between the subsidies and tax benefits companies like GM and Ford get vs Tesla is the scale....GM and Ford are GIANT companies...even if they got the same $$ amount as Tesla has, it amounts to a fraction of their operating costs. Tesla, however, requires these to stay in business. They have since the beginning, but they're not a startup anymore...it's not smart business. And to take deposits from people, promising them a car in 12-18 months, or longer in the case of the roadster and truck...just to fund their hemorrhaging business...only delays the inevitable...because what will fund the production of those, even more expensive vehicles? If this were GM, Ford, or Chrysler, there would be hoards of people shouting "let them die, they don't know how to do business".....

In that same time table...GM will be shifting nearly a quarter of it's total volume production to all-electric vehicles of many different shapes and sizes. Including at least one that is 100% autonomous with not even a steering wheel, meant for Lyft-style transportation fleets. I believe, in the long-run, Tesla will be a flash in the pan. Impressive, influential...but not nearly as successful and world-shaking as Elon Musk dreams about. Which is ironic...because his initial business model was to simply produce parts and components for other manufacturer's EVs, never full cars...but none of them were interested.

Again, I don't hate Tesla...and some of the things they have brought to market are pretty cool. But I feel like my thoughts on this are very level-headed and rational.
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:42 AM   #62
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In regards to affordability and a car for everybody, it looks like many of those will take a hit in the affordability category once the tax credit is used up before they take delivery...

From the link I posted earlier:
"Delivery dates have been pushed further into the future for “many” reservation holders, and “customers who waited in line in March 2016 to place deposits for the first Model 3s will have to be patient even longer,” Bloomberg reported Feb. 8.
The tax credit implications McCaffery referred to concern the $2,500 to $7,500 federal credit for electric-vehicle purchases that starts phasing out when a car maker hits 200,000 vehicles sold domestically, a number Tesla is expected to hit this year.
Tesla is making higher-end Model 3s first, costing $50,000 and boasting a longer range than the base-price $35,000 version. That means, according to the delivery-time notice from Tesla that McCaffrey posted on Twitter, that while reservation holders for the long-range car have delivery scheduled for March to May, those who ordered the cheaper car or the dual-motor, all-wheel-drive version have delivery set at “late 2018.”..."

Not all doom and gloom quite yet....Most are still "optimistic"....but I believe if they can't get a Tesla, they won't buy from anyone else....Call it fanboyism or whatever, I see it as loyalty to an entrepreneur who will eventually keep his promise...

Tesla is building these cars with a "cause" behind it....All the others manufacturers are forced to make these vehicles reluctantly and after tagging along with Tesla's lead in this area....Yep, it's a lot of hype and Kool-Aid, but what isn't when it comes to understanding the car manufacturing industry?...I say, give Tesla the benefit of the doubt. He has a loyal following and will make good at some point.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:45 AM   #63
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I don't like them mostly because they have a cult following that has led to a holier-than-though image rivaled only by the Prius, a shoddy business case, and innumerable quality issues that nobody talks about...

That said - they're another domestic company, that's a plus. And they've done a great deal for the development and evolution of the electric car. Back when the Volt was first envisioned, Bob Lutz (then GM's chief of design) was quoted as saying; "If an upstart like Tesla can do it, so can we!"
This ^ Some of Tesla's followers are worse than the people that worship Apple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham View Post
With all due respect...you're awful getting defensive about this...

Please read back on some of my posts...I don't *hate* Tesla. I see them for what they are...a small automaker making some big news, but small sales. And their balance sheet is terrifying. They have made some incredible strides in EV development. But they haven't been the only ones to do so...nor were they the first.

I do challenge your statement that they build EVs "that everybody can use"...because they started business producing the roadster...an extremely niche car that cost $100,000. Their next model was the S...another $100,000 car. with any options...and then the X, an $80,000 vehicle. While they function like a car should (most of the time)...I wouldn't praise them for building the everyman's EV. The Nissan Leaf and Volt made it to market years ago as $~40k-$50k EVs. Even the EV1, the industry's first attempt at a modern electric car, started with a price equivalent to $55k today. No, it didn't succeed in the marketplace...but we're talking about affordable EVs...until Model 3....Tesla wasn't it.

Then there's the Model III...which is not the *first* affordable EV as we know it; the Chevy Bolt beat them to the punch...and they can't seem to handle the stresses of true volume mass production. So sure, it's not news and we all know that, yes - but that's a BIG deal.

The difference between the subsidies and tax benefits companies like GM and Ford get vs Tesla is the scale....GM and Ford are GIANT companies...even if they got the same $$ amount as Tesla has, it amounts to a fraction of their operating costs. Tesla, however, requires these to stay in business. They have since the beginning, but they're not a startup anymore...it's not smart business. And to take deposits from people, promising them a car in 12-18 months, or longer in the case of the roadster and truck...just to fund their hemorrhaging business...only delays the inevitable...because what will fund the production of those, even more expensive vehicles? If this were GM, Ford, or Chrysler, there would be hoards of people shouting "let them die, they don't know how to do business".....

In that same time table...GM will be shifting nearly a quarter of it's total volume production to all-electric vehicles of many different shapes and sizes. Including at least one that is 100% autonomous with not even a steering wheel, meant for Lyft-style transportation fleets. I believe, in the long-run, Tesla will be a flash in the pan. Impressive, influential...but not nearly as successful and world-shaking as Elon Musk dreams about. Which is ironic...because his initial business model was to simply produce parts and components for other manufacturer's EVs, never full cars...but none of them were interested.

Again, I don't hate Tesla...and some of the things they have brought to market are pretty cool. But I feel like my thoughts on this are very level-headed and rational.

Also agree. Tesla needs to really start delivering on some of their promises, the rate they burn through cash is insane. What I think Tesla really nailed with the Model S and the Model 3 is the look. They don't look like a Leaf, they don't look like a Bolt. They don't look like a Prius. All those econo cars just kind of have that boring look to them. The Tesla cars, they look like cars, they look like they have some soul to them. They just need to get their business side running a lot smoother.
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Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:51 AM   #64
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Also agree. Tesla needs to really start delivering on some of their promises, the rate they burn through cash is insane. What I think Tesla really nailed with the Model S and the Model 3 is the look. They don't look like a Leaf, they don't look like a Bolt. They don't look like a Prius. All those econo cars just kind of have that boring look to them. The Tesla cars, they look like cars, they look like they have some soul to them. They just need to get their business side running a lot smoother.


I'm still not sold on the way the front of the model 3 looks....I am reminded of Michael Jackson post-nose....

But I think the S looks gorgeous. Every once in a while one drives by near me and I can't help but stare. Very classy...but sporty.
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Old 02-13-2018, 12:01 PM   #65
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The first time I saw a Model S in person I literally was like what the hell is that thing its gorgeous!!!!
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Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT View Post
Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 02-13-2018, 12:03 PM   #66
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Old 02-13-2018, 05:05 PM   #67
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Hahaha! I love this forum. You guys never fail to entertain. People will get upset over anything at all these days. Lol
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:20 PM   #68
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I have a question I hope one of you guys can answer because it sounds like you’re the experts... from what I understand is almost every auto manufacturers have said they plan on having a fully electric fleet by some time in the next 10 years or so. With that said how will I charge my fully electric Chevrolet on a road trip? Right now tesla has invested tons of money on their supercharger network and it’s going to continue to grow over time. Do other auto manufacturers have an answer for this?
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:31 PM   #69
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That $36k model 3 isn't all that... (Bolt is $37K) it's black, has a 220 mile range, and their craftsmanship hasn't been anything to brag about yet... the Nissan Leaf has better build quality.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/nissa...-drive-review/
Yes but the Nissan Leaf only goes 100 miles on a charge if your lucky. I talked to an owner who has an older Leaf and he says your lucky to even get 40 miles on a charge.
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:37 PM   #70
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I have a question I hope one of you guys can answer because it sounds like you’re the experts... from what I understand is almost every auto manufacturers have said they plan on having a fully electric fleet by some time in the next 10 years or so. With that said how will I charge my fully electric Chevrolet on a road trip? Right now tesla has invested tons of money on their supercharger network and it’s going to continue to grow over time. Do other auto manufacturers have an answer for this?
There are a ton of 3rd party companies that are building charge points across the country.
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