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Old 08-24-2010, 09:15 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by JProberts View Post
How do the EP1200 inserts affect the cabin sound in the 2SS?

And is this "rear end step out" what I feel when taking a bumpy curb at 45mph and the back end feels like it is skipping across the road?
How do the EP1200 inserts affect the cabin sound in the 2SS?

If GM tested the vehicle with listening equipment they would find differences. We have done seat of the pants back to back 'testing' with different people listening. Car 1 OE Car 2 EP1200s installed. Not a single person could tell a difference. It isn't scientific, but it is real world. There is not a single person that has installed them and found them to create a noise issue.

And is this "rear end step out" what I feel when taking a bumpy curb at 45mph and the back end feels like it is skipping across the road?

Yes, that is rear end step out. We could add lowering coils, change the dampers, add a rear sway bar and all they would do is change the point at which it occurs because none of these address the cause of the condition you describe. When the IRS shifts from side to side or front to back or a combination of the two in a twist the motion creates rear end step out. Other parts will mask it or alter the point at which it becomes a bother, but only sub-frame inserts or sub-frame bushes will correct the condition at the source.
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Old 08-24-2010, 09:19 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
How do the EP1200 inserts affect the cabin sound in the 2SS?

If GM tested the vehicle with listening equipment they would find differences. We have done seat of the pants back to back 'testing' with different people listening. Car 1 OE Car 2 EP1200s installed. Not a single person could tell a difference. It isn't scientific, but it is real world. There is not a single person that has installed them and found them to create a noise issue.

And is this "rear end step out" what I feel when taking a bumpy curb at 45mph and the back end feels like it is skipping across the road?

Yes, that is rear end step out. We could add lowering coils, change the dampers, add a rear sway bar and all they would do is change the point at which it occurs because none of these address the cause of the condition you describe. When the IRS shifts from side to side or front to back or a combination of the two in a twist the motion creates rear end step out. Other parts will mask it or alter the point at which it becomes a bother, but only sub-frame inserts or sub-frame bushes will correct the condition at the source.
Cool, thats what I thought Let me know when they are on the way.
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Old 08-24-2010, 09:20 PM   #73
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Cool, thats what I thought Let me know when they are on the way.
They shipped out today
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Old 08-24-2010, 09:23 PM   #74
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Jason,

I am new to Camaro's and this is the first I have owned, so I don't really know all the other technical stuff but am learning.

So that is why I am asking these questions, to learn without wasting money so to speak.
To put a twist on an old 'saw' -- Ask twice. Pay once. If I haven't answered you questions or if your have more this is THE place to ask them.
Please feel free to ask more questions here or call our office and ask for Tech Support. 248.522.8021
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Old 08-25-2010, 06:43 AM   #75
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OK I understand what you are trying to say about the bushing, basically the inserts stiffen up the rear, Correct? By doing this it allows the rear to be more firmly planted on the ground,better traction etc.....

So the next question is since it has better traction and the power is more placed to the ground then the stress will be moved from the bushings to where? I guess the next weakest link which would be????

Thanks
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Old 08-25-2010, 11:35 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Dr Jkel View Post
OK I understand what you are trying to say about the bushing, basically the inserts stiffen up the rear, Correct? By doing this it allows the rear to be more firmly planted on the ground,better traction etc.....

So the next question is since it has better traction and the power is more placed to the ground then the stress will be moved from the bushings to where? I guess the next weakest link which would be????

Thanks
This is the beauty of the EP1200 solution. Stabilising the IRS sub-frame more evenly distributes loads than the OE bushes. How is that possible? When the sub-frame motion is reduced, when twisting is reduced, all of the IRS component are more evenly loaded. A hard launch screws down the passenger side of the car from the torque exerted through the drive-line. That makes the passenger side rear wheel bite harder and more or less turns the entire IRS sub-frame towards the left of the car. This unevenly loads elements of the IRS. Reducing the twisting motion under hard launch conditions more evenly distributes the loads across the different arms and links in the IRS.

For a daily driver, the Camaro leaves that factory as a GREAT automobile. It needs very few adds to be a GREAT AUTOMOBILE. We start with sub-frame bush inserts, then move to radius bush inserts as the foundation. The front lean and roll doesn't cause any handling issues for the vast majority of Camaro owners. They just want less body lean and roll. That is easy. We add a larger front sway bar. With these three upgrades or modifications the Camaro is complete for the majority of owners as far as daily driver performance.

The next step would be THE LOOK. Many want a lowered look. The look is not a performance issue. The look is a fashion statement. Lowering coils will fill the bill for a fashion statement, but coilovers are the better solution as a performance upgrade.

I'll stop here, because the intent of this thread is how to modify your Camaro to be a better daily driver. If you and others want to continue the discussion I'll be happy to go into more detail.
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Old 08-25-2010, 11:49 AM   #77
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Mine is not a daily driver, but I do not race either. Just looking for a stance and less body roll on winding country roads and entering the interstate is all. I have increased the HP on my car but do not come near using all that I have. Put it this was my car is over a year old and I have 6700 miles, babied miles, mostly interstate.
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Old 08-25-2010, 12:04 PM   #78
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I'm glad to see the bushings have been brought up in this thread. Personally I think they should be the first mod before sways. I had them put on my car along with their Xa coil overs; I'm still on the factory sways. The difference in the handling of the car is nothing short of amazing.

I don't know what your level of driving skill is but for a street only car, I'd definitely recommend the bushings first. Drive it that way a week or two to become familiar with the change in handling, then consider sways. I know you've gone sways first but once you get the bushings done, you're going to be amazed not only at how much better the car handles, but at the improvement in the stability of acceleration and braking. That's the benefits of the bushings.

Since you're doing "spirited" driving, I'd also recommend upgrading your brake fluid to Super Blue or something equivalent and also braided stainless steel brake lines. Too often people only think of power and cornering when they think of performance and neglect upgrading their braking ability.

You can't go wrong with Pedders though and welcome to the Pedders nation!
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Old 08-25-2010, 12:10 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Dr Jkel View Post
Mine is not a daily driver, but I do not race either. Just looking for a stance and less body roll on winding country roads and entering the interstate is all. I have increased the HP on my car but do not come near using all that I have. Put it this was my car is over a year old and I have 6700 miles, babied miles, mostly interstate.
The Camaro doesn't need a lot for the use you describe. Follow the thread and you may find that all you need and want are radius and sub-frame inserts with a front bar. JP has been candid with his reports. Let's see where this goes.
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Old 08-25-2010, 12:53 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
I'm glad to see the bushings have been brought up in this thread. Personally I think they should be the first mod before sways. I had them put on my car along with their Xa coil overs; I'm still on the factory sways. The difference in the handling of the car is nothing short of amazing.

I don't know what your level of driving skill is but for a street only car, I'd definitely recommend the bushings first. Drive it that way a week or two to become familiar with the change in handling, then consider sways. I know you've gone sways first but once you get the bushings done, you're going to be amazed not only at how much better the car handles, but at the improvement in the stability of acceleration and braking. That's the benefits of the bushings.

Since you're doing "spirited" driving, I'd also recommend upgrading your brake fluid to Super Blue or something equivalent and also braided stainless steel brake lines. Too often people only think of power and cornering when they think of performance and neglect upgrading their braking ability.

You can't go wrong with Pedders though and welcome to the Pedders nation!
Thanks for the infor on the brakes, kinda forgot about that.
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Old 08-25-2010, 09:41 PM   #81
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After speaking with Pete I have decided to go with the sub-fame inserts as he suggested. He feels that this is the best way to go to get the cart to where I want it which is just firming up the rear end and making it feel as planted as the front does now with the front sway bar.

As I have stated before I'm not looking for a racing type set-up with my suspension and he believes that the sub-frame inserts will give me what I'm looking for more so that just adding a rear sway bar.

If I add the rear sway bar it might not really get me the improvements I am looking for. If the sub-frame inserts do not do the trick than the rear sway bar is still an option, but Pete really believe that this won't be the case and I trust his professional opinion, he hasn't been wrong so far so that is all I can ask for.

So Pedders will be sending the sub-frame inserts to TandT and hopefully Tim will be able to install them with the same precesion he did the front sway bar and end links. The sub-frame inserts will be the only mod done at this time. I will wait to do the lowering springs until I have driven the car and given some feedback on what the car feels like with just the sub-frame inserts added.

He is a question for you Pete. I have noticed since adding the front sway bar that while driving on curves on some bumpy roads around 45mph I have noticed that while the front of the car absorbs the bumps and stays perfectly on line the rear end will kind of bump and kick out. Now before the front end would act much the same way as the back but after adding the front sway it was drastically improved.

My quetion is will the sub-frame inserts solve this type of problem?

Thanks again Pete
The EP1200s delivered to T and T today.
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Old 08-25-2010, 09:53 PM   #82
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The EP1200s delivered to T and T today.
OK, I will gove Tim a call tomorrow and set-up a install date and let everyone know what the outcome is and hopefully others will get something out of the information also.

Thanks again Pete.
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Old 08-25-2010, 09:58 PM   #83
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OK, first , love this thread. learning a lot. I just want to make sure this info applies to the V6 as well and whether the parts mentioned are also what I would use?
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Old 08-25-2010, 10:13 PM   #84
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OK, first , love this thread. learning a lot. I just want to make sure this info applies to the V6 as well and whether the parts mentioned are also what I would use?
Yes, but they work better in the better balanced from the factory V6
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