Tune + Warranty concerns

[Camarorss350]

btw, sorry for blowing up i just hate when people directly attack my intelligence....

[Partick]

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

thats just it. they have a pretty good idea. but they dont know all the ins and outs of this computer. some claim to, but they dont. there are systems and subsystems in this computer that the tuners cant access (regardless of what they might let you believe). they want you to think that you can sneak by GM with a tune. just because the dealer tech couldnt find the tune, doesnt mean that the GM engineer who reviews the pcm wont.

Just out of curiosity where do you get your knowledge of the ECU that concinces you the tuners don't know as much as they think they do?

[ffrcobra_65]

I bet there are tuners out there with the same educational degree and maybe even higher, than those working at GM and reading computer mambo-jambo has become second nature to them. I know a guy who is an awesome tuner dealing mainly with Mustangs and this guy quit his job as a mechanical engineer, opened his speed shop, and can read data and tune cars with the best of them.
Oh yeah, he says he would never tell a customer that a tune can be deleted and never be detected by the manufacturer. He put it simply, "think about your personal computer, you press delete, you don't see the stuff anymore but we know the crap you deleted is still there. It just takes someone with know how and look at the hidden tables to see it. There may or maybe not be other tables I can see that only the manufacturer can see, I don't know that and no tuner can say 100% they see and know everything. But you can bet your car if Ford (or GM) engineers wanted to investigate a car's computer, they'll see what they are looking for. "

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Camarorss350

btw, sorry for blowing up i just hate when people directly attack my intelligence....

Who attacked your intelligence? Hoping you aren't thinking it was me. The guys who know me here know I don't do that.

Originally Posted by Partick

Just out of curiosity where do you get your knowledge of the ECU that concinces you the tuners don't know as much as they think they do?

I am a Validation Manager at General Motors. I work with the teams to develop the Validation Plan for new programs and to define and content goes on the MILLIONS of dollars of prototypes that it takes to properly calibrate a powertrain. Further, I anther Manger from my group on our Hybrids. You want to talk about a calibration nightmare. And one of my oldest friends works for Ford in the Dyno where they do the preliminary calibration where hundreds of hours of Dyno work and computer simulation are used before you can even drop the engine into a car and drive it.

So, yes, I have a pretty good idea on what it takes to calibrate a powertrain and a pretty good idea what tests and evaluations are done over several YEARS to get it right.

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

I bet there are tuners out there with the same educational degree and maybe even higher, than those working at GM and reading computer mambo-jambo has become second nature to them. I know a guy who is an awesome tuner dealing mainly with Mustangs and this guy quit his job as a mechanical engineer, opened his speed shop, and can read data and tune cars with the best of them.
Oh yeah, he says he would never tell a customer that a tune can be deleted and never be detected by the manufacturer. He put it simply, "think about your personal computer, you press delete, you don't see the stuff anymore but we know the crap you deleted is still there. It just takes someone with know how and look at the hidden tables to see it. There may or maybe not be other tables I can see that only the manufacturer can see, I don't know that and no tuner can say 100% they see and know everything. But you can bet your car if Ford (or GM) engineers wanted to investigate a car's computer, they'll see what they are looking for. "

Not higher, but I am quite confident there are good technical folks out there working on tunes. Yep, I'm sure there are. And I'm sure some are absolutely brilliant and GM would be better to have them. They just don't have the resources, manpower and equipment to do what GM does (and it isn't just GM by the way, all OEMs). Do they have a PG? One in the desert and another in the cold frigid North? Hot and Cold chamber dynos? Multiple grades for stop/start, trailering? What they do have that GM doesn't is the benefit of not having to worry about FE or Emissions or Warranty.

I have no problem with the guys getting mods on their cars. I just try to explain why you shouldn't epxect GM to warranty your car if you do modify it and yes, I get defensive when you guys make claims that your "tune" makes your car better (especially more durable.........not). It might make more HP and if that is your deffinition of better, cool. But any OEM optimizes the powertrain calibration on a wide range of requirements. You are focussing HP. I've said it before and I'll say it again..............if there were some magic formula that resulted in HP and Fuel Economy and it met emissions, it would already be in your car. There are engineers that do nothing but optimize these calibrations.

GM provides a 5 year/100,000 mile warranty on your powertrain. That warranty is based on millions of dollars spent to engineer and validate the car under the conditions it is delivered to you. You can't expect any company to warranty a product when you modify it outside those boundry conditions.

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by Partick

Just out of curiosity where do you get your knowledge of the ECU that concinces you the tuners don't know as much as they think they do?

just a couple of people that actually wrote the programming for the Camaro's ecu. and I'm not saying the tuners dont know a lot. I know they do know a massive amount on tuning. but some of them are claiming to know more than they do when it comes to this ECU.

[ffrcobra_65]

Thanks number 3. A lot of consumers just don't understand the Validation process: Design, Testing, Expected Results, Pass/Fail, Deviations, etc. aspects that are done/met/passed before putting this type of product out there. Many think you just slap and engine and tranny together, tie them to a module, install some cats and mufflers to meet those requirements, and it is done. VALIDATION is a huge pain but necessary.

[axis]

Originally Posted by GaryTucker

I'm guessing it depends on the situation and the dealer...but really, will you know that you've got the right dealer at the right time when you take in your car. GM is cracking down on warranty fraud as it has increased as dealers have struggled to make ends meet during these lean times. If a customer comes in with "xxx" problem and I can turn it from a $100 bill to GM into a $1000 bill with GM I can pay my bills. This is what has driven GM to ask for verification.

I'm not endorsing defrauding GM or anyone else. I'm just replying to those that are suggesting things that aren't necessarily true. Saying that GM requires a upload of the ECU files with every power train warranty claim is absolutely not true. It's trying putting a scare into everyone with absolutely no basis. That is not saying that GM can't come in and demand what it wants from the dealerships, but to this point, they haven't and nothing has been put out there to suggest they are going to. In fact, has ANYONE on this site been denied warranty work based on a tune or any other minor mod, like CAI or exhaust? I do agree that if you want to mod your car, including "tunning", then you should be ready to pay the price if you break something but trying to scare people with unfounded gossip is wrong.

[2cnd chance]

[QUOTE=Camarorss350;1141492]Dude, every motor is different... GM makes the tune so broad that it can handle variances in engine performance. Once your car is tuned by a pro, he can make the parameters alot closer to the specs that your engine is commanding...


Do you even know what a tune is?[/QUOTE]


ooooooooooooooooooooooooh no he didn't?

[axis]

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

thats just it. they have a pretty good idea. but they dont know all the ins and outs of this computer. some claim to, but they dont. there are systems and subsystems in this computer that the tuners cant access (regardless of what they might let you believe). they want you to think that you can sneak by GM with a tune. just because the dealer tech couldnt find the tune, doesnt mean that the GM engineer who reviews the pcm wont.

It's just a drive train computer, not some super secret module that holds the access codes to the long range nuclear missiles. Programs can be accessed and subsystems can be accessed, despite what the "GM programmers" told you. If they can access it, I can guarantee you that others can. Despite that, it really doesn't matter if you can access those subsystems anyway. All they're doing is tweaking the stock tune and putting it back in. It's not like they are rewriting a brand new engine management program, although i'm sure many of them could do just that.

It all comes down to whether or not GM can tell if you've swapped a "cooked" tune in and then reverted back to OEM. If they don't have a WORKING counter to tell if it's been swapped, then they can't. Do you have proof that the GM engineer can figure it out? How many of these "GM engineers" are out there? They're gonna have to have a shit load of them to go all around the country checking ECUs. I think you either give them too much credit or the private sector too little. If you ghost the stock tune out, then put it back in, it's EXACTLY the way it was when it was taken out and will match all the CVN codes perfectly. If you go by the bulletin that GM put out, as long as the CVN codes match, it's OEM.

Although the part numbers will be the same for each, it's the CVN that will determine if the calibration is GM issued. If ALL of the CVN's are EXACTLY the same, the calibration is GM issued.

[ryeguycamaro]

Nicely Put Axis couldn't have said it better. The car we did this on the cvn matched perfectly. We copied the stock tune and saved it and then modified the that tune and resaved it put it in and checked it and the cvns were different, then we put the stock tune back in and the cvn were just as they were before we even touched the car. We did the whole screen shot test and compared.

[JohnInSoCal]

got to pay to play. I don't know much about custom tunes, or how specifically these HP tuners etc. write new parameters to change the tune of the car but I am a computer programmer. And as a programmer/engineer I can guarantee you that GM could easily design this module to allow you to change certain parameters with tuners and tell that you modified it and put it back, even without that counter. The HP tuners is only allowed to access what the module allows it to, GM could easily have other parameters that are not visible to the tuners or techs and that only GM has access to when they want to. Now I don't know if GM designed the computer to do so but it would be easy to do it, they have been doing this for years, and given the cost of replacing transmissions etc. I would think they thought of this long long ago and are doing exactly that.

So I am not saying one way or the other what they do, only that it is easily possible that they are doing it and the tuners simply are not aware of it because they are only accessing a very limited portion of the module that the module allows them to.

Having said all that I am not worried about modding the car and getting custom tunes at all. These engines are very strong, the only thing what worries me a bit is the transmission but no guts no glory.

[axis]

Originally Posted by JohnInSoCal

got to pay to play. I don't know much about custom tunes, or how specifically these HP tuners etc. write new parameters to change the tune of the car but I am a computer programmer. And as a programmer/engineer I can guarantee you that GM could easily design this module to allow you to change certain parameters with tuners and tell that you modified it and put it back, even without that counter. The HP tuners is only allowed to access what the module allows it to, GM could easily have other parameters that are not visible to the tuners or techs and that only GM has access to when they want to. Now I don't know if GM designed the computer to do so but it would be easy to do it, they have been doing this for years, and given the cost of replacing transmissions etc. I would think they thought of this long long ago and are doing exactly that.

So I am not saying one way or the other what they do, only that it is easily possible that they are doing it and the tuners simply are not aware of it because they are only accessing a very limited portion of the module that the module allows them to.

Having said all that I am not worried about modding the car and getting custom tunes at all. These engines are very strong, the only thing what worries me a bit is the transmission but no guts no glory.

I have not doubt that they "COULD" do something but the counter would have been the easiest and apparently they didn't activate it. Other than that, there are a lot of "IFs" in your post. There are a lot of things that "could" have been done but nothing has been done as of today and until GM does something, it's all just speculation and unfounded gossip. If the GM bulletin holds true, the only way for GM Corporate will get involved is when the dealer chooses to make a stink about it. The dealer will have to have knowlege of wrong doing, other than the CVN codes, since they apparently don't have any more access than the rest of us. In the end, it's still a crap shoot, but if you want to play, you have to be able to accept the "possible" consequences.

[JohnInSoCal]

this is all speculation on both sides. Until somebody blows an engine or tranny and has a custom tune and then tries to reset that tune and bring it in for a new engine or tranny under warranty then we will not know if GM can detect a tune change or not. That is unless a GM engineer who designed the system makes a comment here or statement in print somewhere. Until then this is 100% speculation on both sides. Just because a mechanic at a chevy dealer didn't detect a custom tune doesn't mean that GM can't.

Bottom line is if you are worried about it then keep your car stock. If you don't care one way or another then have fun and mod away which is what I will do. But if you are the type that is worried about GM voiding your warranty then I wouldn't bet the farm on internet speculation because that is all we have in this thread.

[GaryTucker]

Originally Posted by axis

I'm not endorsing defrauding GM or anyone else. I'm just replying to those that are suggesting things that aren't necessarily true. Saying that GM requires a upload of the ECU files with every power train warranty claim is absolutely not true. It's trying putting a scare into everyone with absolutely no basis. That is not saying that GM can't come in and demand what it wants from the dealerships, but to this point, they haven't and nothing has been put out there to suggest they are going to. In fact, has ANYONE on this site been denied warranty work based on a tune or any other minor mod, like CAI or exhaust? I do agree that if you want to mod your car, including "tunning", then you should be ready to pay the price if you break something but trying to scare people with unfounded gossip is wrong.

I'm not sure if there are any 5th gen cars that have been denied...but I was pulled into a warranty block on a 4th gen (modded car, stupid kid-owner...you can guess what got this one blocked) and I can tell you that there HAVE been Corvettes denied this year...so yes it does happen.