[cwl011]

Originally Posted by PalmerGA

Okay... uncover your eyes and see reality. Auto manufacturers are only getting away with putting out 500+ HP cars because the Government lets them... because they get soaked for a Gas Guzzler tax. Eventually, the Government will say "okay, fun's over" and make a regulation against anything that doesn't get 30 mpg.


Dead serious. Stick around another decade or so and you will see the end of (affordable) street cars that can't manage 30 mpgs. Oh... and you have your punctuation backwards.

The voice of experience, and reality.

It is called innovation. They will find a way to make high hp machines that get great gas milage. They can do it and they will. Why spend money in R and D when they can bump the hp just enough to out do the stang. They are just playing dumb for now and trying to fight the system because lower gas milage means more gas consumed which mean more money for big oil which means more lobbying for car companies. They aren't going to bite the hand that is feeding them. On the other hand think about this, over the past 40 years they have doubled the v8s mpg while also doubling the hp. if they are limited on the amount of hp to make, it will force them to make higher mpgs and don't get me wrong when i say this because i love hp but the average human does not need over 500 hp. I drive an hour each way to work every day and the amount of bad drivers blows my mind. People don't respect cars like they did back in the day.

[v8]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Why are you comparing Z06 times with Hellcat times? The comparison should be the Viper if you want to include the Z06 in this comparison. Should we then compare the Viper times to the ZL1, and make this a valid comparison?

Good point

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by ParisTNDude

Exactly what I think...well done!

Chevy has humiliated the GT500 on every track anyone cared to draw a comparison. I really like winning with the underdog and Chevy has done that. My L99 2010 Camaro beat several Boss 302s at the drag strip which must have been tough for a Ford guy to take ..especially since you couldn't buy a Boss 302 LS for under $70k.

So what happens when the new GT500 comes out that can handle and has a ton of horsepower? Should we just move on to another performance metric that the Camaro wins in and hang our hats on that?


*Future Camaro6 posts*
I don't care about handling, 0-60 or 1/4 mile times. Our Camaros produce less C02 per mile and that's all that matters.

[v8]

+1

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

So what happens when the new GT500 comes out that can handle and has a ton of horsepower? Should we just move on to another performance metric that the Camaro wins in and hang our hats on that?


*Future Camaro6 posts*
I don't care about handling, 0-60 or 1/4 mile times. Our Camaros produce less C02 per mile and that's all that matters.

nah then it will be about which car rides more like a cadillac and is more comfy hahaha

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Why are you comparing Z06 times with Hellcat times? The comparison should be the Viper if you want to include the Z06 in this comparison. Should we then compare the Viper times to the ZL1, and make this a valid comparison?

Dude... Others were talking about it many posts before I added my info about zo6 and hellcat. I was comparing them because it was being discussed. The hellcat is compared to everything all the time. Isn't that what they wanted? Isn't that what happens when you have 700 hp?

And sure go ahead and add the viper. Not sure what your saying I guess? I'm scared to compare them? I don't realize the zl1 is no match for either?

Why would I even include viper in when it is off topic? Have you even read the thread or just jumped in to argue with me and defend a dodge product like you always do? The zo6 has an lt4 which will probably go into a zl1. So I'm sure that's why some brought it into the discussion. Not sure what your hard on for dodge or the viper has to do with this?

I can't wait until the first ss vs 392 comparison. Eagerly awaiting your input on that. We will be comparing them all day

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

So what happens when the new GT500 comes out that can handle and has a ton of horsepower? Should we just move on to another performance metric that the Camaro wins in and hang our hats on that?


*Future Camaro6 posts*
I don't care about handling, 0-60 or 1/4 mile times. Our Camaros produce less C02 per mile and that's all that matters.

Is it wrong to want it all? Good looks, great handling, superb ride and fast acceleration?
Oh, that's right... I own a gen5 ZL1 so bumping it up to 750 HP is easy.

I do agree that the 650 HP LT4 won't be enough for gen6. Chevy, stop giving us little blowers.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Why are you comparing Z06 times with Hellcat times? The comparison should be the Viper if you want to include the Z06 in this comparison. Should we then compare the Viper times to the ZL1, and make this a valid comparison?

When the HC was announced you like that comparison. It seemed crazy and outrageous at the time so it stuck in my memory

Originally Posted by newmoon

The gauntlet has been thrown down for sure. Has Chevy released the performance numbers on the new Corvette Z06 yet, I hope they are better or it will be pretty embarrasing? I think this also backs Ford into a corner with the new GT350, the numbers for this 4-door sedan are going to be tough to top especially if Ford stays with a manual version only.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

Dude... Others were talking about it many posts before I added my info about zo6 and hellcat. I was comparing them because it was being discussed. The hellcat is compared to everything all the time. Isn't that what they wanted? Isn't that what happens when you have 700 hp?

And sure go ahead and add the viper. Not sure what your saying I guess? I'm scared to compare them? I don't realize the zl1 is no match for either?

Why would I even include viper in when it is off topic? Have you even read the thread or just jumped in to argue with me and defend a dodge product like you always do? The zo6 has an lt4 which will probably go into a zl1. So I'm sure that's why some brought it into the discussion. Not sure what your hard on for dodge or the viper has to do with this?

I can't wait until the first ss vs 392 comparison. Eagerly awaiting your input on that. We will be comparing them all day

Yes the 392 to 6th Gen SS will be interesting. If it performs well say low 12s I want to see how quickly the focus of track work will fade, and street perfromance will once again be the topic of conversation. Ford thought they had a winner with the 6th Gen Mustang and it is actually slower than the prior Gen, and really is no threat to a 392 A8.

In regards to the ultimate Camaro when Chevy releases a bone stock Camaro (please don't bring up the Copo) that is tested by an independent review team that can run these numbers please let me know. Until then I get it the Z06 has to carry the Chevy banner for those of us who enjoy Street/Strip performance, hopefully that is about to change though with a upcoming ZL1.

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Yes the 392 to 6th Gen SS will be interesting. If it performs well say low 12s I want to see how quickly the focus of track work will fade, and street perfromance will once again be the topic of conversation. Ford thought they had a winner with the 6th Gen Mustang and it is actually slower than the prior Gen, and really is no threat to a 392 A8.

In regards to the ultimate Camaro when Chevy releases a bone stock Camaro (please don't bring up the Copo) that is tested by an independent review team that can run these numbers please let me know. Until then I get it the Z06 has to carry the Chevy banner for those of us who enjoy Street/Strip performance, hopefully that is about to change though with a upcoming ZL1.

While I know what your saying. The focus on the track has been going on for a while before the hellcat was around. And obviously both sides will argue a strong point don't you think? Why don't the dodge guys talk as much handling ? And honestly it is long overdue. The public image of American sports cars/ pony cars/ muscle cars being fast and unable to turn was embarrassing. I'm glad our cars can do everything now and don't get laughed at by the rest of the world.

Regardless a car that performs better in all areas and not just one is a better all around performance machine. I think that's what Chevy has been working towards and the camaro looks to be built for just that.

Handle the 392 on the strip. And beat the Mustangs on a road course. How can that be a bad thing?

For the record I've always cared about the strip. In reality road coursing your car is very expensive and not very realistic for most people etc. but driving feel and enjoyment is still a factor. Bigger heavier cars just aren't as fun to drive imo. The whole experience is a bit more numb.

They are doing exactly what should be done. A camaro should be up for any task.

Oh and I don't care if Chevy ever surpasses the hellcat. Which they could with far less hp btw. Even an lt4 with 640 hp would make it interesting.
I'll never buy a 60k plus car of any kind. The true battle between these cars is and always has been the ss/gt/rt... The car most people can afford and drive. The cars that will matter to the most people by far.

[LesserO2Evils]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

So what happens when the new GT500 comes out that can handle and has a ton of horsepower? Should we just move on to another performance metric that the Camaro wins in and hang our hats on that?


*Future Camaro6 posts*
I don't care about handling, 0-60 or 1/4 mile times. Our Camaros produce less C02 per mile and that's all that matters.

Of course! Just like 5th Gen owners have been doing regarding sales since the Coyote came out and started ruling the track. "Well....uh, we SELL MORE CARS, so ours must be better!" Says 5th Gen owner.
Which ironically is EXACTLY what Mustang owners were sayingin the late ninties till 2009. It goes round and round.
People will FIND reasons to defend their purchase. I, however, want a purchase that can defend ITSELF.

[NASTY99Z28]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Why are you comparing Z06 times with Hellcat times? The comparison should be the Viper if you want to include the Z06 in this comparison. Should we then compare the Viper times to the ZL1, and make this a valid comparison?

Because that's all Chevy has/had to compete with the fat cat in a straight line.

Originally Posted by shaffe

nah then it will be about which car rides more like a cadillac and is more comfy hahaha

The ats-v and ats-v guys will win that one..

Originally Posted by LesserO2Evils

Of course! Just like 5th Gen owners have been doing regarding sales since the Coyote came out and started ruling the track. "Well....uh, we SELL MORE CARS, so ours must be better!" Says 5th Gen owner.
Which ironically is EXACTLY what Mustang owners were sayingin the late ninties till 2009. It goes round and round.
People will FIND reasons to defend their purchase. I, however, want a purchase that can defend ITSELF.

Most cars can be a better car and not be the fastest. That aspect only matters to gear heads and that's a very small %. Even if the next camaro is slower than a mustang I'll still pick it just because I simply like more about that car than I do the other. Plus I mod anyways so either car is a good base to go off of. That and I'm not a fan of the sound of the coyote. I like the old 5.0 and even 4.6 better.

[396ssrat]

One thing about the Hellcat is that they can't supply the engines fast enough. Italy hit a home run on that call. The goal of building cars is making money for your stockholders and Italy is doing just that with there Hellcat.
An issue Chevy still has is they tell you what you want rather than to give you what you want. An example is the Silverado 1500, Why do I have to buy an Ext Cab LTZ in order to get the 6.2 V-8?
Why can't I go to the dealer and buy a standard cab 1500 with a 6.2 V-8?
This is why Italy is doing well with there over bloated same old design Challenger. They are upping the performance end. You can bet that they are making a lighter more lethal version as we read this thread and they will kick Chevy's backside. Other than the C7 Chevy (and Caddy) has been playing catch up since the 60's and it took until now to get with the program. Thank you Mary Barra but GM (Chevy in particular) better get ahead of the others in creativity soon.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

One thing about the Hellcat is that they can't supply the engines fast enough. Italy hit a home run on that call. The goal of building cars is making money for your stockholders and Italy is doing just that with there Hellcat.
An issue Chevy still has is they tell you what you want rather than to give you what you want. An example is the Silverado 1500, Why do I have to buy an Ext Cab LTZ in order to get the 6.2 V-8?
Why can't I go to the dealer and buy a standard cab 1500 with a 6.2 V-8?
This is why Italy is doing well with there over bloated same old design Challenger. They are upping the performance end. You can bet that they are making a lighter more lethal version as we read this thread and they will kick Chevy's backside. Other than the C7 Chevy (and Caddy) has been playing catch up since the 60's and it took until now to get with the program. Thank you Mary Barra but GM (Chevy in particular) better get ahead of the others in creativity soon.

A lot of assumptions in that post. You assume FCA is making good money on the Hellcats, but that is unlikely given their recent statements about it being "halo car". Has anyone actually seen any new sales figures? Last thing around sales for them was that they stopped taking orders at 9000, but that's not an actual built number.

I agree on the 1500 statement, that is odd but hell I hardly ever see anyone with a new standard cab truck. Everyone wants extended or crew cab. So betting they are not loosing really any sales.

You assume they are making a lighter Challenger, but there's been no word at all on a new platform which would be needed to make big progress in weight reduction. In reality, the new GT500 is going to decimate the Hellcats with more HP, less weight, and better handling. Then Ford will remove the only good PR Dodge has. Then there's the fact that Dodge offering what it does is still being outsold 2 to 1 by a less powerful Mustang GT. Has Dodge upped the HP war, yes. Is Dodge doing well because of their performance edge? Not really, they just aren't doing as bad as the now dated 5th gen Camaro. Don't forget Dodge completely scrapped the interior and tech features in addition to offering the extra performance of the Scat Pack and Hellcats. One could say the redesign made as much a difference in their sales as performance increases (or the PR from them).

"Other than the C7 Chevy (and Caddy) has been playing catch up since the 60's and it took until now to get with the program."

Not sure what you are trying to say there. Caddy has only been playing catch up to the Germans in recent years. And the Corvette was in a class all it's own till the Viper came about and the price of the Viper always kept it from competing directly. Now there are rumors it may go away entirely because of it's dismal sales.