[Norm Peterson]

Rare, but it still keeps happening.

This whole keyless thing is an answer to a question that never needed to have been asked.


Norm

[wavsine]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Rare, but it still keeps happening.

This whole keyless thing is an answer to a question that never needed to have been asked.

One thing people don't understand is that many modern cars that still have keyed ignitions start in exactly the same way as pushbutton start. There is not a direct connection from the key to the starter solenoid as in older cars. Turning the key (or pushing the start button) simply sends a signal to the computer to initiate a start sequence.

[crosive]

Originally Posted by wavsine

One thing people don't understand is that many modern cars that still have keyed ignitions start in exactly the same way as pushbutton start. There is not a direct connection from the key to the starter solenoid as in older cars. Turning the key (or pushing the start button) simply sends a signal to the computer to initiate a start sequence.

Exactly. My 07 Yaris still has a key. You blip it to start, and the car turns over till it starts. That's 11 year old tech, atleast.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by wavsine

One thing people don't understand is that many modern cars that still have keyed ignitions start in exactly the same way as pushbutton start. There is not a direct connection from the key to the starter solenoid as in older cars. Turning the key (or pushing the start button) simply sends a signal to the computer to initiate a start sequence.

As long as a key is involved, you're not at the mercy of as many potential faults. Just off the top of my head, you'd eliminate the 'fob/fob battery' and 'poor/no RF signal reception' issues that might get in the way of starting.


Norm

[90503]

Just my $.02....I have a '17 Impala with a remote start, keyless entry, etc., etc.,....So far it seems to be working ok....just to add, I have read in the manual that should I get a low fob battery, or key fob not detected message, there is a bracket inside the console that receives the key fob that would allow me to start, perhaps stop the engine....(then drive it to the dealer for a new fob, or battery, I assume)...

Also, if needed because the fob is not working, it has also has a switchblade key for manual entry on the door!...(it's there somewhere, haven't bothered to find it)…..
In my case, if any key fob Gremlins showed up that I could not remedy, I would be extremely pissed and cursing the heavens for an old fashioned key....lol...

Just to add, I don't keep the fob with my regular key chain...Sometimes I remote start the car, put in cargo items, etc,. then drive off without my house keys and leaving the back door to the house unlocked or open...lol...If I had just a car key on my key chain, this would not happen...lol

[wavsine]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

As long as a key is involved, you're not at the mercy of as many potential faults. Just off the top of my head, you'd eliminate the 'no fob battery' and 'poor/no RF signal reception' issues that might get in the way of starting.

Norm, I used to feel the same way as you, I hated pushbutton start/keyless. After living with it for a year, I would be reluctant to go back to keyed ignition. Sure, there are further software improvements that can be made but even with the current system, it is quite workable.

1. If the fob battery completely dies, you can place the fob in the rear cupholder and start the car.

2. If you accidentally drive off without your fob, the car allows one restart without the fob (as long as you do it within a minute or two of realizing you don't have the fob) That will be very apparent when you go to lock the car with the fob and realize it is gone.

3. Your suggestion of carrying a door key in your wallet is excellent. That combined with a hidden fob inside the car (with the battery removed) will get you started even if your kid throws your primary fob out the window on the freeway.

4. And as I previously stated, keyed or keyless makes no difference. When you turn the key or push the start button, you are just asking the computer to initiate a start sequence.

[drperry]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Sorry, but GM is NOT lazy or afraid to do it.

Excluding the FMVSS regulations, you would need to ensure the car is in neutral and ensure the park brake is engaged. So if you even wanted such a feature, you would have to be in neutral with the park brake engaged, and not everyone does that. And on TOP of that you would need an interlock that prevented the car from being shifted out of neutral into any gear. Note if you remote start an automatic, you CANNOT shift out of park until after you hit the start button and in order to do that you need the key fob IN THE CAR. So it is pretty impractical for a manual transmission. Has NOTHING to do with fear or laziness.

So you need to sense neutral (done), sense park brake engaged (workable) and an interlock on the shift lever that prevents shifting out of neutral until the ignition switch is pressed with the key fob in the car (could possibly but do you really want the mass and complexity of that). And you may have to change the FMVSS regs as well, I'm not sure doing those 3 things actually meet the standard.


If the fob is not in the car and you can't move? What is your proposal when the battery in the fob dies? And generally when you try to start the vehicle it will tell you no fob is detected.

Again, everyone seems to want to be piling on GM for an extremely rare occurrence experienced by the OP.

Aftermarket systems require you to follow a set of procedures to activate the remote start system ability. GM could easily get it done. But they don't want to for liability or the extra work involved.

It could easily be installed on the M6 cars, but GM refuses to do it, lol.

Would be a lot nicer using on-star/OEM for remote starting vs. aftermarket solutions.

The aftermarket stuff connects to your neutral sensor, park brake sensor, and clutch switch.

GM already has a gear lock device installed on the car (skip shift)... But you can't put a manual car into gear while it's running without pressing the clutch, anyways... Which, in aftermarket systems, when you press the clutch without the vehicle in "run" the engine shuts off.

As for the fob dying, as I said, when it loses signal, if you're moving above a certain speed, it stays running for safety reasons. Anything under 5MPH it can shut down.

If the batter on the fob dies, you put your dead key fob in the appropriate cup holder, where it likely gets charged by the inductive charging system, to keep the signal active.

They could easily rig it all up, but they don't want to. And they could do it to pass all safety regulations, but that's extra work/liability on the couple extra parts.

At the very least, a low speed shut down if the clutch gets depressed without the fob in the car, would be easy to program.

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[Number 3]

Originally Posted by drperry

Aftermarket systems require you to follow a set of procedures to activate the remote start system ability. GM could easily get it done. But they don't want to for liability or the extra work involved.

It could easily be installed on the M6 cars, but GM refuses to do it, lol.

Would be a lot nicer using on-star/OEM for remote starting vs. aftermarket solutions.

The aftermarket stuff connects to your neutral sensor, park brake sensor, and clutch switch.

GM already has a gear lock device installed on the car (skip shift)... But you can't put a manual car into gear while it's running without pressing the clutch, anyways... Which, in aftermarket systems, when you press the clutch without the vehicle in "run" the engine shuts off.

As for the fob dying, as I said, when it loses signal, if you're moving above a certain speed, it stays running for safety reasons. Anything under 5MPH it can shut down.

If the batter on the fob dies, you put your dead key fob in the appropriate cup holder, where it likely gets charged by the inductive charging system, to keep the signal active.

They could easily rig it all up, but they don't want to. And they could do it to pass all safety regulations, but that's extra work/liability on the couple extra parts.

At the very least, a low speed shut down if the clutch gets depressed without the fob in the car, would be easy to program.

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Sorry, aftermarket doesn't make it legal for an OEM. Like I tried to explain it is VERY difficult. You are not legal unless you deal with "PARK" and I don't care what the aftermarket does.

Just because it can be "rigged up" doesn't mean an OEM can do it.

And if you car stops dead below 5 mph that would be awesome to have your car die on train tracks or in the middle of an intersection while turning in front of a truck.

You might want to brush up on the FMVSS OEMs are required by law to meet. You'd understand the difficulty and impossibility of what you are suggesting.

But I think you've made your mind up so I'll just let you continue with it's because GM is afraid or lazy. But to be clear, no OEM offers a remote start with a manual transmission and the reason isn't that every single manufacturer is afraid and or lazy.

[90503]

I find it hard to believe that with the seemingly imminent arrival of "hands-free" and driverless technology available now and in the future, that the seemingly small potatoes of what can and can't be done with a key fob and remote procedures are so problematic.

And yet we are to blindly trust all this hands-free technology. Too many road-blocks and hurdles for the key fob. Rare, yet unwanted problems with the control of the car with the fob and it's functions....lol...


Can't wait to see the excuses for problems when drivers think the technolgy can allow them to drive hands free....lol....The key fob and all functions should be 100% bullet proof, before we can trust any hands-free driving....or should we expect intermittent failures and accidents with that, too?....Or, is it just use it and we'll fix any glitches later on, if we can ever get around to it?

[dpevans]

You know in the menu there is a setting to alert to no key fob detected.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by wavsine

Norm, I used to feel the same way as you, I hated pushbutton start/keyless. After living with it for a year, I would be reluctant to go back to keyed ignition. Sure, there are further software improvements that can be made but even with the current system, it is quite workable.

4. And as I previously stated, keyed or keyless makes no difference. When you turn the key or push the start button, you are just asking the computer to initiate a start sequence.

I've driven (briefly, anyway) a couple of race cars that were "keyless". A switch for ignition, maybe another switch for fuel, and finally a switch to energize the starter/starter relay. I was fine with that, didn't miss having to turn a key at all. I'd be fine with something like that in a street-driven car today, given the presence of somewhat better protection against "unauthorized use". Heh . . . the very first car I ever "drove" myself actually had a push to start button, along with a key switch for at least the ignition (1950's vintage, maybe a Chevy or a Pontiac). I'm using the term "drove" very loosely, as it was in a field out behind my uncle's house, a few years before I got my driver's license.

Unfortunately, today's reality seems to be that electronics and modules absolutely must be involved, regardless of whether the task could be accomplished by simpler means.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Sorry, aftermarket doesn't make it legal for an OEM. Like I tried to explain it is VERY difficult. You are not legal unless you deal with "PARK" and I don't care what the aftermarket does.

So GM or anybody might only have to provide a park sprag in their manual transmissions like everybody does with their automatics. This isn't the first time I've mentioned this approach.


Norm

[torqueaddict]

I wouldn't trust or want remote start on a manual. Nor would I want any other complicated piece of equipment added to make this happen. Just one more thing to go wrong.

[drperry]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Sorry, aftermarket doesn't make it legal for an OEM. Like I tried to explain it is VERY difficult. You are not legal unless you deal with "PARK" and I don't care what the aftermarket does.

Just because it can be "rigged up" doesn't mean an OEM can do it.

And if you car stops dead below 5 mph that would be awesome to have your car die on train tracks or in the middle of an intersection while turning in front of a truck.

You might want to brush up on the FMVSS OEMs are required by law to meet. You'd understand the difficulty and impossibility of what you are suggesting.

But I think you've made your mind up so I'll just let you continue with it's because GM is afraid or lazy. But to be clear, no OEM offers a remote start with a manual transmission and the reason isn't that every single manufacturer is afraid and or lazy.

GM or any manufacturer could easily design a safe/legal remote start for manual transmissions, if the demand was there for it. But I'll concede that it's too big of a PITA to do it, for the amount of people that want it.

But, there's also no reason why the car could not shut off while not moving at all, when you press the clutch to put it into gear, when the fob is not detected in the vehicle. Even if it's an option you can turn on and off.

And yes, I know I'm just complaining because I'm going to have to sit in the car at -40 while it warms up, or at 90 degrees while it cools down, until I get remote start put in, lol.

Originally Posted by torqueaddict

I wouldn't trust or want remote start on a manual. Nor would I want any other complicated piece of equipment added to make this happen. Just one more thing to go wrong.

Never had an issue with my old stick shift... You couldn't use the remote start, unless the park brake was on, and it had to be armed with the engine running, while in neutral. They're just as reliable as remote start in an automatic.

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