[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Vtor_ZL1

That was early on.. now you can get them at sticker or BELOW.


and IF you pay it.. it's on YOU. that means there is a DEMAND for them. They are roped off.. we don't see same treatment from Chevy. GT350's get shipped in specific locations on the truck.. to minimize getting underside dirty! Big giant tag gets plastered on the door glass.


No test drives!


First ZL1 we went to see, "oh hey, here's the key, go for spin."


Conclusion: there are people who PAID and if they are still paying.. fools and their moneys soon part ways.

The question is not IF there are markups skippy. We're discussing WHY there are markups. There is a demand for them...but WHAT is driving that demand? Is it because the car has some special appeal to it? Is it because people thought it would substantially increase in value? Is it because people who wanted the top model Mustang and would not settle for a GT had no other options? That is what we're discussing.

And sure you can walk into a dealership now and test drive a ZL1. But you also can test drive a GT350R. That is, after you've signed for them and are approved to buy it. Or after you've shown a sincere interest in buying one and have proven that you have the means to. But don't sit here acting like they're handing out the keys to brand new ZL1s at any stranger's request and they're being joy-ridden like a V6 or something. We all know that isn't true. At least not on a regular basis. If you were just handed the keys to one, and I'm assuming that you bought it based on your pic, then you must have shown a sincere interest in the car or spoken with them or something. You didn't just walk in and say "hey I wanna test drive that car" and they threw you the keys. And I would bet that the salesman went along for the drive. Unless it was a used car. Then maybe they did do that. But definitely not with a new one. But hey, some dealerships might be a bit more easy going about these things.

For the record, the GT350R appeal has diminished. They are not commanding these massive markups anymore. In fact, they aren't commanding ANY markups at all. So that reinforces that there is not anything special about the car. Same engine. Same options. Maybe some extras added on. Same CF wheels. Same trans. It is virtually the same car. So why are they not getting the markups now like they were when they first showed up?

[BRMike]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

It was the GS and Z06, where last year it was the GS. But if they don’t look at changes, why did they write this?

The GT350 was, thanks to its 2017 win, but failed to retain the award; its lack of changes rendered it ineligible this year.

I'm not sure. The GS was on the list for 2017 and 2018. For 2019 they threw in the Z06 with the GS. Of course there hasn't been anything new for the Z06 either.

EDIT: I think if a vehicle was on the previous year's list, it's eligible. Otherwise, the car would have to be all new or significantly updated. That would explain the misunderstanding.

EDIT 2: Found this in the 2018 article: "The rules for vehicle eligibility are thus: Entrants must cost no more than $80,000 (anything pricier should be amazing), and they must be a returning winner, all-new, or significantly revised."

The 2018 Mustang was not available to them at the time of the testing for the 2018 list, which is why it was eligible for 2019.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

You say "for the record" as if you are authority on the subject...It's not that there's nothing special about the car. There's plenty of unique items on the GT350R compared to most sports cars and a standard GT Premium. It's appeal may have diminished more than likely because Ford has all but announced the GT500 and everyone knows it's going to be supercharged. That'll put a damper on a GT350/GT350R. Ford probably should have upped the power for '19 for all GT350/GT350R to ~550-560 hp to help reduce the natural slump in sales before the GT500 comes out, ala 1996 Corvette with the LT4, prior to the new 1997 Vette.

I think you don't understand the term "for the record".

But anyway, it DID diminish. That much is obvious since you can find plenty of them at MSRP whereas a year ago you could not. If there is something special about the GT350R, then the GT500 would not be able to take that away. Especially since the GT500 is a completely different car. The GT350R would still be a special car. But it is not. When I ask what is soo special about the car, nobody can give me a direct answer. Is it fast? Like, blazing fast? Does it handle like nothing else on the planet? Does it brake like no other car? Is it worlds apart from it's competition? What gives?

Ask me what is special about the ZL1 and I'll round off a list of answers for you.

[hotlap]

Let’s not forget 2016 - 2017 -2018. Camaro was Car and Driver 10Best three consecutive years.

Chevrolet Camaro V-6 / SS / ZL1 Coupes
...Camaro will demolish your preconceptions, one corner at a time.

...About that chassis. It’s one of the best in the world, with the kind of preternaturally intuitive steering, faultless brakes, and overall balance you’d expect from a Porsche.

...The ZL1 is a supercar that just happens to look like a Camaro.

A reputation is a hard thing to live down. Perception often lags reality, and the reality is this: Camaros are among the most sophisticated driver’s cars in the world. And three consecutive years on the 10Best Cars list proves that this Chevy isn’t just great at attacking a corner, it has also turned one.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-coupes-page-4

Congratulations Ford? The 2019 writeup is rather underwhelming by comparison.

Our 10Best Cars list of late has been stable—oops, we meant "a stable." Chevrolet's pony car, the Camaro, booked a stall between 2016 and 2018, while Ford's Mustang paid by the hour,

...We never did stop liking the Mustang's remastered mid-century look and modern performance. The GT's newly available MagneRide electronically adaptive shocks from the GT350, more powerful V-8, and two Performance packages edging it closer to the Shelby's track-worthiness push it over the finish line. The base EcoBoost four-cylinder engine remains unworthy of the rest of the Mustang and our 10Best list.

There are no asterisks needed for the Bullitt edition, Ford's nostalgia-soaked half-gallop between the GT and the Shelby GT350 that shares in the former's award for 2019.
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...10best2019ford

[Vtor_ZL1]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The question is not IF there are markups skippy. We're discussing WHY there are markups. There is a demand for them...but WHAT is driving that demand? Is it because the car has some special appeal to it? Is it because people thought it would substantially increase in value? Is it because people who wanted the top model Mustang and would not settle for a GT had no other options? That is what we're discussing.

And sure you can walk into a dealership now and test drive a ZL1. But you also can test drive a GT350R. That is, after you've signed for them and are approved to buy it. Or after you've shown a sincere interest in buying one and have proven that you have the means to. But don't sit here acting like they're handing out the keys to brand new ZL1s at any stranger's request and they're being joy-ridden like a V6 or something. We all know that isn't true. At least not on a regular basis. If you were just handed the keys to one, and I'm assuming that you bought it based on your pic, then you must have shown a sincere interest in the car or spoken with them or something. You didn't just walk in and say "hey I wanna test drive that car" and they threw you the keys. And I would bet that the salesman went along for the drive. Unless it was a used car. Then maybe they did do that. But definitely not with a new one. But hey, some dealerships might be a bit more easy going about these things.

For the record, the GT350R appeal has diminished. They are not commanding these massive markups anymore. In fact, they aren't commanding ANY markups at all. So that reinforces that there is not anything special about the car. Same engine. Same options. Maybe some extras added on. Same CF wheels. Same trans. It is virtually the same car. So why are they not getting the markups now like they were when they first showed up?

Yeah skippo, voodoo? engine eating oil like a rotary may have something to do with that.


And one i was handed keys to was not the one I bought.


I'll say this, was I was shopping for both, the dealers treated Shelby like a goddaim supercar, all indoors, all clean. Chevy dealers, it was just another camaro, out in the rain, elements, etc. And that was just in May, when marks up were going away in some dealers. I had half dozen available in my area and of those, only 1 had markup.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Vtor_ZL1

Yeah skippo, voodoo? engine eating oil like a rotary may have something to do with that.


And one i was handed keys to was not the one I bought.


I'll say this, was I was shopping for both, the dealers treated Shelby like a goddaim supercar, all indoors, all clean. Chevy dealers, it was just another camaro, out in the rain, elements, etc. And that was just in May, when marks up were going away in some dealers. I had half dozen available in my area and of those, only 1 had markup.

I can actually agree on how they treat these cars. I went to a Ford dealership and they had a rope around a GT350. Not even the R. I was there with my little brother and they treated us like trash. They said we couldn't even touch the car. I looked at the salesman and said "you know I could walk out of here right now with this car if I wanted it right?". So we looked around as I was shopping for a SUV anyway. And then we left. A Dodge dealership had the same attitude towards a Hellcat. Meanwhile a Chevy dealership about 10 miles away had a Z06 with a sticker of $107,000 just sitting outside. However I have seen dealerships with used Z06s that were inside, roped off, and had signs around them saying "DO NOT TOUCH". So it more or less depends on the dealership and how they value the car.

But it goes right back to my original thought that GM has soo many high value cars that the ZL1 is never going to command that kind of treatment. The GT350R however IS the top dog for Ford. So they will be put in the showroom and treated special. Go to a Chevy dealership and they have GS Vettes, Z06s, ZL1s, CTS-Vs, 3LT Stingrays, etc. With all these big name cars they will not be treating the ZL1 like it is the king. Heck there is a dealership around the corner from my job with a 3ZR ZR1 MSRP at $144K and it is sitting outside right now. I could go there at 2am and snap a pic of it. Now if all Chevy offered was the SS Camaro and then the ZR1 or the SS Camaro and then the Z06 or ZL1 then you bet your ass that it'll be treated better. But they have too many options.

[BlaqWhole]

Matter of fact, no other manufacturer has as many high priced high HP performance options as GM does. So as amazing as the ZL1 is, it isn't much when there are several other cars on it's level AND when it is the cheapest of them all.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Let’s not forget 2016 - 2017 -2018. Camaro was Car and Driver 10Best three consecutive years. Congratulations Ford? The 2019 writeup is rather underwhelming by comparison.

There is no denying the performance of the 6th Gen Camaro, they didn't infer that, for the past 3 yrs the GT was slow in comparison, and its looks and practically couldn't make up for it, easy win for the Camaro.

For 18 this all changed, the GT is just as fast, and still has the better curd appeal.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Maybe people just aren't willing to pay ADM on a "special car" that's been around for 3 years anymore. At some point doesn't the supply of people willing/able to pay above MSRP just dry up, without the car suddenly becoming less than it was?

[Silverado57]

Just for laughs I started to look at what a comparable Mustang would cost. Frankly, I couldn't get past the ugly front end. The Camaro is a work of art compared to the Mustang.

[ihc95]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Based on the comments about outward visibility, yet again, it's a wonder how all of us are still alive and haven't ran our cars off a bridge. LOL!! I can't speak for anyone else, but if GM changed the visibility of this car and it had any impact on how the car looks on the outside and handles then I'd be upset. But either way it doesn't matter. I'll be moving on to Z06s or M5s for my next car anyway!!

Get the M5!!


Best all around car money can buy imo

[ihc95]

Originally Posted by Silverado57

Just for laughs I started to look at what a comparable Mustang would cost. Frankly, I couldn't get past the ugly front end. The Camaro is a work of art compared to the Mustang.

You must not have seen the 2019 SS

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

You say "for the record" as if you are authority on the subject...It's not that there's nothing special about the car. There's plenty of unique items on the GT350R compared to most sports cars and a standard GT Premium. It's appeal may have diminished more than likely because Ford has all but announced the GT500 and everyone knows it's going to be supercharged. That'll put a damper on a GT350/GT350R. Ford probably should have upped the power for '19 for all GT350/GT350R to ~550-560 hp to help reduce the natural slump in sales before the GT500 comes out, ala 1996 Corvette with the LT4, prior to the new 1997 Vette.

Plenty? I only count 2, FPC and CF wheels.

I dont think Ford will continue selling the voodoo for long, let alone increase engine output when they are grenading left and right but you're right that it would spark more sales. HP numbers sell cars. I am interested to see what they do though, I think few expect both Shelby's to be sold along side each other but they seem to be selling regardless of the massive used market for these cars so demand is still there. One thing I like about Ford is you never know what they will do, they aren't as rigid as Chevy, and that's cool to me.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

Maybe people just aren't willing to pay ADM on a "special car" that's been around for 3 years anymore. At some point doesn't the supply of people willing/able to pay above MSRP just dry up, without the car suddenly becoming less than it was?

This! The supply of idiots with more money than sense has dried up.