Camaro VS Mustang Mega Thread

[Sax1031]

Originally Posted by truth411

I've heard about that, I have been going to open track days for the past 7 years off and on. If the Boss mustang power peaks at 7000rpm, what is the point of reving it to 8300rpm since power beigns to drop off at 7k. I have to see the power band, but it might be smarter to shift at 7.5k for fastest lap times.

From the way the ford reps talked peak power is around the 7500rpm mark if not a little higher.

[KMPrenger]

I love our Camaros...oh so much! But after reading in detail about that particular mustang....

....it is awsome.

[truth411]

Originally Posted by Sax1031

From the way the ford reps talked peak power is around the 7500rpm mark if not a little higher.

Wait a sec. I'm confused, The stock boss mustang peak power is at 7000k acording to ford. The "key" that I assume raises the stock redline to 8300rpm also is a companied by what to make peak power at 7500rpm?? If peak power is at 7500rpm then the boss would be making more power than 440. More revs equal more Horsepower.

[snakekiller]

Originally Posted by truth411

Wait a sec. I'm confused, The stock boss mustang peak power is at 7000k acording to ford. The "key" that I assume raises the stock redline to 8300rpm also is a companied by what to make peak power at 7500rpm?? If peak power is at 7500rpm then the boss would be making more power than 440. More revs equal more Horsepower.

both Boss's peak at 7500rpm. i find it interesting that the LS model has a 180mph speedometer, that special "Red Key" must raise the revs and eliminate the mph limiter.

[snakekiller]

HIGH-REVVING FORD 5.0-LITER V8 DELIVERS POWER, SPEED, FLEXIBILITY BEFITTING THE BOSS NAME

2012 Ford Mustang Boss 302 engine delivers 440 horsepower and 380 ft.-lbs. of torque without the aid of forced induction
Purpose-built Boss engine is based on production 2011 Mustang GT 5.0-liter DOHC V8, heavily modified with unique, Boss-specific parts to withstand all-day thrashing
Revised intake, CNC-machined heads, lightened valvetrain and strengthened reciprocating assembly result in a race-proven engine meeting production durability standards
MONTEREY, Calif., Aug. 13, 2010 – The all-new 5.0-liter dual-overhead camshaft (DOHC) V8 in the 2011 Mustang GT already is the most powerful naturally aspirated production V8 Ford has ever produced. To make it worthy of the Boss name, Ford engineers tweaked more than a few bits of the engine.

They reengineered an entire dynamometer cell to handle the engine’s projected 7,500 rpm redline; put the first engines into Boss 302R race cars and sent them straight onto the track; and they designed a torture test equivalent to running the Daytona 250 race flat-out more than 175 times – in a row.

Only when the 440-hp V8 passed these tests, ensuring maximum power output without sacrificing durability, reliability and drivability, was it worthy of being called a Boss.

Bulletproof and blower-free
Planning began with a small group of engineers within the 5.0-liter V8 team. Starting with open minds and enlisting the help of two members of the original 1969 Boss 302 design team, the group began working its way toward the ultimate evolution of the new 5.0-liter: 440 horsepower and 380 lb.-ft. of torque, along with a broad, flat output curve all the way through its projected 7,500 rpm redline.

The Mustang team knew a supercharger would be the simplest way to extract significant power improvements from the new 5.0-liter V8, but they elected not to pursue forced induction for the 2012 Boss to stay true to the original Boss 302 engine.

“The core group of engineers on the Boss 302 engine understands and respect the heritage of the name and the history behind the original engine,” explains Mike Harrison, Ford V8 engine program manager. “The first Boss 302 was a specially built, free-breathing, high-revving small V8 that gave it certain desirable characteristics on a race course – and we capture that essence in the new engine.”

The team also realized the additional hardware meant more weight, the bane of any racing program and the opposite of what the Boss design team was attempting to achieve. Instead, the same technology that has made the new Mustang GT engine such a formidable force was applied to the Boss 302.

“In keeping with the spirit of the original, "The new Boss 302 engine achieves its maximum power output at speeds at or above 7,500 rpm", says Harrison. “Unlike the original engine, however, low-speed torque and driveability are uncompromised thanks to twin independent variable camshaft timing (Ti-VCT) technology and computer-aided engineering design tools.”

Harrison and his team began exploring Boss 302 concepts starting with the engine’s ability to breathe – essential to the production of horsepower. Because credible track performance requires high power production between 5,000 rpm and 7,000 rpm, the team needed a new approach to intake manifold design.

Borrowing from the Ford Daytona Prototype engines, the resulting short-runners-in-the-box design virtually eliminates lag when the throttle is snapped open while producing peak power output at high rpm.

“The effect of the new intake design is dramatic,” says Harrison. “When I took the prototype car to Mustang Chief Engineer Dave Pericak, he took a short drive, tossed me the keys and said ‘Book it…it’s in the program.’ He knew what we were onto, and that’s really the point where the Boss 302 was born.”

To take advantage of the racing intake manifold, cylinder head airflow was fully optimized by CNC porting the entire intake and exhaust port and combustion chamber. The painstaking machining process takes 2.5 hours per head to complete.

To accompany the higher peak-power engine speed, the team had to engineer a lightweight, high-speed valvetrain and bulletproof reciprocating assembly that would not only hold together for 150,000-plus miles but also produce power at peak rpm.

“What most people don’t realize is that engine stresses increase exponentially as engine speeds rise,” explains Harrison. “So moving up from GT’s 7,000 rpm redline required significant re-engineering of many different parts. Sacrificing reliability and usability over the GT engine was never an option.”

Some of the Boss-specific parts contributing to the Boss 302 V8’s output and durability include:

Revised composite intake system with shorter runners, inspired by Daytona Prototype racing engines, for high-rpm breathing
Forged aluminum pistons and upgraded sinter-forged connecting rods for improved strength, needed for the higher combustion pressures and engine speeds
New high-strength aluminum-alloy cylinder heads with fully CNC-machined ports and chambers for exceptional high-rpm airflow without sacrificing low-speed torque
Lightened valvetrain components to provide excellent dynamic performance up to speeds well above the engine redline
Sodium-filled exhaust valves for improved heat dissipation
Race-specification crankshaft main and rod bearings for higher load capability and improved high-speed durability
5W50 full-synthetic oil with engine oil cooler for improved oil pressure and longer-lasting lubrication during extreme racing conditions
Revised oil pan baffling for improved oil control under racing conditions and during cornering loads greater than 1.0 g
Close connection with race teams
Contrary to normal engine development protocol, the first batch of durability test engines weren’t installed in an engine dyno. Instead, thanks to a request from Ford Racing, they went straight to the track.

“Ford Racing had challenged the Boss engine team to give them the first available Boss 302 engines,” explains Harrison. “They came to us in August 2009 and told us they needed engines as soon as possible to build a limited number of Ford Racing Boss 302R cars for the January Daytona race. They got the engines 12 weeks later and the team got five Boss 302R cars prepped for the January race. This gave us a fantastic opportunity to be able to get full-on race experience with the engine so early in the program.”

The Boss engines have run reliably all season without a single mechanical failure. Boss 302R cars have also racked up the most laps led so far this season in Grand-Am racing.

Using race telemetry, the Boss team has been able to gather on-track data to help optimize engine calibrations, oil pan designs and cooling. In order to engage in virtual racing whenever they needed, the team used the telemetry data to re-create a hot lap at Daytona on the dyno back in Dearborn, allowing further fine-tuning.

“Working with Ford Racing has been invaluable,” said Harrison. “They were a wealth of information for setting up torque and power curves for road racing and for identifying areas of concern during track runs that we wouldn’t have considered if we were just building a hot street engine. Every Boss 302 owner will benefit from their contributions to the program.”

Production engine durability testing
Despite its racing heritage – and the rigors of track-day testing – the Boss 302 V8 is still a production Ford engine, built alongside the 5.0-liter GT engine at Essex Engine Plant in Ontario, Canada. That means it has to meet or exceed all the standard durability testing every Ford engine is required to complete.

The high-winding engine presented a challenge: The engine had no trouble staying together at its redline, but the Ford durability dynamometers weren’t designed to operate at the speeds the Boss engine was capable of.

“Ford had no engine test cells built to run at that kind of sustained speed,” said Harrison. “Ford Racing had one, but it wasn’t instrumented to do production durability testing. So we had to re-engineer the dyno cell with new balancers and jackshafts so the dyno wouldn’t fly apart running at redline hour after hour.”

Once an adequate test stand was configured, the Boss engine was run at its full rated output for tens of millions of cycles, eventually outperforming its specifications at every stage of testing. Engineers calculated that the test regimen was equivalent to running the Daytona 250 race flat-out more than 175 times – in a row.

Team members also devised an additional durability test specific to the Boss 302 engine – one that reflects the unique demands of Boss drivers. The engine was subjected to a regimen simulating 1,500 quarter-mile races typical of events at drag strips across the country.

“Even though the production Boss engine is designed to be very close to a full race engine, it had to achieve the same vehicle durability signoff any other production engine requires,” says Harrison. “Then it went on to get the track durability test signoff too. It’s really an engineering accomplishment that a Boss owner can thrash his car on the track and still expect the same outstanding reliability that the owner of a regular Mustang GT will enjoy.”

[truth411]

Originally Posted by snakekiller

HIGH-REVVING FORD 5.0-LITER V8 DELIVERS POWER, SPEED, FLEXIBILITY BEFITTING THE BOSS NAME

2012 Ford Mustang Boss 302 engine delivers 440 horsepower and 380 ft.-lbs. of torque without the aid of forced induction
Purpose-built Boss engine is based on production 2011 Mustang GT 5.0-liter DOHC V8, heavily modified with unique, Boss-specific parts to withstand all-day thrashing
Revised intake, CNC-machined heads, lightened valvetrain and strengthened reciprocating assembly result in a race-proven engine meeting production durability standards
MONTEREY, Calif., Aug. 13, 2010 – The all-new 5.0-liter dual-overhead camshaft (DOHC) V8 in the 2011 Mustang GT already is the most powerful naturally aspirated production V8 Ford has ever produced. To make it worthy of the Boss name, Ford engineers tweaked more than a few bits of the engine.

They reengineered an entire dynamometer cell to handle the engine’s projected 7,500 rpm redline; put the first engines into Boss 302R race cars and sent them straight onto the track; and they designed a torture test equivalent to running the Daytona 250 race flat-out more than 175 times – in a row.

Only when the 440-hp V8 passed these tests, ensuring maximum power output without sacrificing durability, reliability and drivability, was it worthy of being called a Boss.

Bulletproof and blower-free
Planning began with a small group of engineers within the 5.0-liter V8 team. Starting with open minds and enlisting the help of two members of the original 1969 Boss 302 design team, the group began working its way toward the ultimate evolution of the new 5.0-liter: 440 horsepower and 380 lb.-ft. of torque, along with a broad, flat output curve all the way through its projected 7,500 rpm redline.

The Mustang team knew a supercharger would be the simplest way to extract significant power improvements from the new 5.0-liter V8, but they elected not to pursue forced induction for the 2012 Boss to stay true to the original Boss 302 engine.

“The core group of engineers on the Boss 302 engine understands and respect the heritage of the name and the history behind the original engine,” explains Mike Harrison, Ford V8 engine program manager. “The first Boss 302 was a specially built, free-breathing, high-revving small V8 that gave it certain desirable characteristics on a race course – and we capture that essence in the new engine.”

The team also realized the additional hardware meant more weight, the bane of any racing program and the opposite of what the Boss design team was attempting to achieve. Instead, the same technology that has made the new Mustang GT engine such a formidable force was applied to the Boss 302.

“In keeping with the spirit of the original, The new Boss 302 engine achieves its maximum power output at speeds at or above 7,500 rpm, says Harrison. “Unlike the original engine, however, low-speed torque and driveability are uncompromised thanks to twin independent variable camshaft timing (Ti-VCT) technology and computer-aided engineering design tools.”

Harrison and his team began exploring Boss 302 concepts starting with the engine’s ability to breathe – essential to the production of horsepower. Because credible track performance requires high power production between 5,000 rpm and 7,000 rpm, the team needed a new approach to intake manifold design.

Borrowing from the Ford Daytona Prototype engines, the resulting short-runners-in-the-box design virtually eliminates lag when the throttle is snapped open while producing peak power output at high rpm.

“The effect of the new intake design is dramatic,” says Harrison. “When I took the prototype car to Mustang Chief Engineer Dave Pericak, he took a short drive, tossed me the keys and said ‘Book it…it’s in the program.’ He knew what we were onto, and that’s really the point where the Boss 302 was born.”

To take advantage of the racing intake manifold, cylinder head airflow was fully optimized by CNC porting the entire intake and exhaust port and combustion chamber. The painstaking machining process takes 2.5 hours per head to complete.

To accompany the higher peak-power engine speed, the team had to engineer a lightweight, high-speed valvetrain and bulletproof reciprocating assembly that would not only hold together for 150,000-plus miles but also produce power at peak rpm.

“What most people don’t realize is that engine stresses increase exponentially as engine speeds rise,” explains Harrison. “So moving up from GT’s 7,000 rpm redline required significant re-engineering of many different parts. Sacrificing reliability and usability over the GT engine was never an option.”

Some of the Boss-specific parts contributing to the Boss 302 V8’s output and durability include:

Revised composite intake system with shorter runners, inspired by Daytona Prototype racing engines, for high-rpm breathing
Forged aluminum pistons and upgraded sinter-forged connecting rods for improved strength, needed for the higher combustion pressures and engine speeds
New high-strength aluminum-alloy cylinder heads with fully CNC-machined ports and chambers for exceptional high-rpm airflow without sacrificing low-speed torque
Lightened valvetrain components to provide excellent dynamic performance up to speeds well above the engine redline
Sodium-filled exhaust valves for improved heat dissipation
Race-specification crankshaft main and rod bearings for higher load capability and improved high-speed durability
5W50 full-synthetic oil with engine oil cooler for improved oil pressure and longer-lasting lubrication during extreme racing conditions
Revised oil pan baffling for improved oil control under racing conditions and during cornering loads greater than 1.0 g
Close connection with race teams
Contrary to normal engine development protocol, the first batch of durability test engines weren’t installed in an engine dyno. Instead, thanks to a request from Ford Racing, they went straight to the track.

“Ford Racing had challenged the Boss engine team to give them the first available Boss 302 engines,” explains Harrison. “They came to us in August 2009 and told us they needed engines as soon as possible to build a limited number of Ford Racing Boss 302R cars for the January Daytona race. They got the engines 12 weeks later and the team got five Boss 302R cars prepped for the January race. This gave us a fantastic opportunity to be able to get full-on race experience with the engine so early in the program.”

The Boss engines have run reliably all season without a single mechanical failure. Boss 302R cars have also racked up the most laps led so far this season in Grand-Am racing.

Using race telemetry, the Boss team has been able to gather on-track data to help optimize engine calibrations, oil pan designs and cooling. In order to engage in virtual racing whenever they needed, the team used the telemetry data to re-create a hot lap at Daytona on the dyno back in Dearborn, allowing further fine-tuning.

“Working with Ford Racing has been invaluable,” said Harrison. “They were a wealth of information for setting up torque and power curves for road racing and for identifying areas of concern during track runs that we wouldn’t have considered if we were just building a hot street engine. Every Boss 302 owner will benefit from their contributions to the program.”

Production engine durability testing
Despite its racing heritage – and the rigors of track-day testing – the Boss 302 V8 is still a production Ford engine, built alongside the 5.0-liter GT engine at Essex Engine Plant in Ontario, Canada. That means it has to meet or exceed all the standard durability testing every Ford engine is required to complete.

The high-winding engine presented a challenge: The engine had no trouble staying together at its redline, but the Ford durability dynamometers weren’t designed to operate at the speeds the Boss engine was capable of.

“Ford had no engine test cells built to run at that kind of sustained speed,” said Harrison. “Ford Racing had one, but it wasn’t instrumented to do production durability testing. So we had to re-engineer the dyno cell with new balancers and jackshafts so the dyno wouldn’t fly apart running at redline hour after hour.”

Once an adequate test stand was configured, the Boss engine was run at its full rated output for tens of millions of cycles, eventually outperforming its specifications at every stage of testing. Engineers calculated that the test regimen was equivalent to running the Daytona 250 race flat-out more than 175 times – in a row.

Team members also devised an additional durability test specific to the Boss 302 engine – one that reflects the unique demands of Boss drivers. The engine was subjected to a regimen simulating 1,500 quarter-mile races typical of events at drag strips across the country.

“Even though the production Boss engine is designed to be very close to a full race engine, it had to achieve the same vehicle durability signoff any other production engine requires,” says Harrison. “Then it went on to get the track durability test signoff too. It’s really an engineering accomplishment that a Boss owner can thrash his car on the track and still expect the same outstanding reliability that the owner of a regular Mustang GT will enjoy.”

Thanks. But something is not adding up, The regular mustang GT peaks at 6500 rpm and is SAE certified at 412hp, If Ford is makeing peak power 1000rpm Higher than the stock GT and proted the heads than it should be makeing more than 440hp. I have not found any confirmation that the Boss is SAE certified. Now that I'm thinking about it, this may be Ford underpromising and OVer delivering once production starts. If certified I'm guessing the boss HP would be around 475ish.

edit.

[Sax1031]

Originally Posted by truth411

Thanks. But something is not adding up, The regular mustang GT peaks at 6500 rpm and is SAE certified at 412hp, If Ford is makeing peak power 1000rpm Higher than the stock GT and proted the heads than it should be makeing more than 440hp. I have not found any confirmation that the Boss is SAE certified. Now that I'm thinking about it, this may be Ford underpromising and OVer delivering once production starts. If certified I'm guessing the boss HP would be around 470ish.

Like I said I believe the 440 hp number is conservative.

Also for the Laguna Seca version with the red key deal, which I am sure the regular boss owners will raise their rev limiters, 4.30 gear would make the car scream.

[Dan@showstopper]

All speculation at this point. We don't know what the General has in store to compete. As it stands the 2011 SS will definitely be beaten by the Boss. But if any Z28 parts find there way into a lightened LS3 SS it will be interesting.

[DGthe3]

To all you guys that are saying revs=power, why are you ignoring the torque curve? Torque declines after peak (did I really just type that? ), and usually drop off faster the quicker you spin the engine. So while you might lose 40 ft-lbs over 2k rpm, you might lose 40 more over the next 1000. Because of this, power builds slower at high rpms because you've got less and less torque to work with. To be under-rated, the Boss would need to produce more than 308 ft-lbs @7500 rpm. Thats less than a 20% drop-off over some 3k rpms. I don't see that happening. More likely it will peak at about 7000 and almost hold the power to redline, but it will drop a bit.


Now, as for the original question posed ... it depends on what there is for the 2012 SS. If its the same as the 2010s and 2011, its no contest. But we don't know what, if anything, is planned.

[snakekiller]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

To all you guys that are saying revs=power, why are you ignoring the torque curve? Torque declines after peak (did I really just type that? ), and usually drop off faster the quicker you spin the engine. So while you might lose 40 ft-lbs over 2k rpm, you might lose 40 more over the next 1000. Because of this, power builds slower at high rpms because you've got less and less torque to work with. To be under-rated, the Boss would need to produce more than 308 ft-lbs @7500 rpm. Thats less than a 20% drop-off over some 3k rpms. I don't see that happening. More likely it will peak at about 7000 and almost hold the power to redline, but it will drop a bit.


Now, as for the original question posed ... it depends on what there is for the 2012 SS. If its the same as the 2010s and 2011, its no contest. But we don't know what, if anything, is planned.

then why did ford say "The new Boss 302 engine achieves its maximum power output at speeds AT OR ABOVE 7,500 rpm"

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by snakekiller

then why did ford say "The new Boss 302 engine achieves its maximum power output at speeds AT OR ABOVE 7,500 rpm"

Because it could, but they've also said other things that contadict that statement:

"flat output curve all the way through its projected 7,500 rpm redline"

then there is this:

Harrison and his team began exploring Boss 302 concepts starting with the engine’s ability to breathe – essential to the production of horsepower. Because credible track performance requires high power production between 5,000 rpm and 7,000 rpm, the team needed a new approach to intake manifold design."

So in one sentence, it peaks at or above 7500. In another, its flat in its upper rpms. And in yet another, they emphasis the power it makes well before redline.

[Sax1031]

It will make it's peak power around 7500. It will probably be relatively flat though.

They aren't going to turn the Laguna Seca version to 8k+ rpm if it makes peak power at 7k.

[snakekiller]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Because it could, but they've also said other things that contadict that statement:
then there is this:
So in one sentence, it peaks at or above 7500. In another, its flat in its upper rpms. And in yet another, they emphasis the power it makes well before redline.

Something seems way odd.
the engine certainly seems like it can do 8000rpm, if you see the spec's this 5.0L is way different than the regular GT's. its pretty much the 302R's engine.

[Sax1031]

Originally Posted by snakekiller

Something seems way odd.
the engine certainly seems like it can do 8000rpm, if you see the spec's this 5.0L is way different than the regular GT's. its pretty much the 302R's engine.

Same shortblock as the 302Rs that race in Continental series.

All they were meaning by the 5,000 - 7,000 segment is saying that they tuned/engineered the car to make a good bit of power in that range.