Purpose Built Road Course LS7 Camaro [COTW 1/19/15]

[merciLSless]

"The Accusump originally was design to keep oil feeding into the motor when it hiccups or cavitated. They are a band aid to a problem that exists which is geroder (stock style) oil pumps. These pumps can't suck oil fast enough at high speeds. They create gas bubbles (cavitating) and oil flow stops. Not good. So the way they make it better is by building a reservoir, when the pumps stops working, the reservoir says "hey I have some excess oil to give you for a little while. That's why they exist, that’s why they came about.

Folks will use them as a pressure priming system. As an example, the motor is running, you shut it off, you come back a day later, you open the valve and the Accusump oozes two quarts of oil through the motor. You start the motor up and now you got to fill that tank back up with two quarts. So now the oil pumps come along and say "Motor or fill the tank?" The tanks goes "I need it" so it takes pressure away from the motor to fill the tank up. So why would you do that when you can keep feeding the motor. You’re getting something but you’re giving something up. It's a band aid.

If you’re taking a shower and someone else turn on the shower, what happens to your water pressure? That's the same thing that happens to the motor. If the oil pressure has to go to both places at the same time, something has to give. So the pressure drops then the reservoir fills up and it shuts off. Now the pressure isn't dropping. You gain something in the fact that you've primed the motor. The thing is if you really need to prime a motor you wouldn't be driving your production car for hundreds of thousands of miles. Every morning, cold as can be, you get in and start her and off you go. Every morning, every car in the country does that. No Accusump, no priming. Park it for a month, park it for a year. You get in and start her up. Do you ever worry about having an Accusump?

So why does the racing world worry about it, because they have too much time in their hands. They come up stupid A$$ ideas and they think they need them. Guess who are the guys who created the Accusump? Same guys who made those geroder oil pumps. So it’s a band aid fix for their crappy oil pumps. They finally woke up and make a dry sump pump. Now they go, "hey we have a market for these things, let’s sell them to everybody, LOL. At $200 a pop for an Accusump, selling thousands of them, it’s a great marketing tool. It’s a joke, you don’t need it."

Let me preface this by saying I USED to have connections at Canton Racing Products but no longer do. There is so much misinformation in this quote that this might take a while. OF COURSE the guy trying to sell you a dry sump systems at 5x the cost is gonna tell you the Accusump is garbage. Just like he says it's a great marketing tool he is doing the same thing.

Are dry sumps a better alternative? Absolutley. Does everyone have the money to spend on them? No. Are there merits to both arguments? Of Course. I like to live by a simple rule, NEVER trust a slandering salesman. If he can't sell his product on merit without tearing down a competitive product than you need to look elsewhere for information.

If he took the time to actually understand the Accusump he would have been able to better educate you on your range of options instead of putting down someone elses product. The Accusump is supposed to have a 10 psi pre-charge in it, this means that when the oil pump catches up and is creating pressure again it isn't going to "decide to give oil to the tank" it's going to travel the path of least resistance (IE not the path with the 10 psi of extra pressure pushing against it). This means that it will refill when there is an appropriate amount of pressure. Take this even further with the electric valve Accusump recommends and it is designed as a slow fill valve. So the information given to you about it being a trade off is overstated and incorrect.

There is also false information about pre-oiling. They sell Accusump to pre-oil cars that sit for weeks at a time. Cars driven almost daily don't need pre-oiling because the residue from the oil takes days to completely drip off bearing and out of the motor. That is why you can daily drive a car for hundreds of thousands of miles without ever having issues. Again, not really painting the entire picture for you. The Accusump will protect those classic cars that sit for weeks and are only driven sometimes. Starting your engine without pressure after long periods of time only a handful of times will not destroy anything. However, the more you do it the the more it will wear. I've linked a PDF from Mahle / Clevite below (neither have any association with Accusump). If you go to page 15 it states a possible cause as "Lubrication system not primed before start up."

http://www.wilmink.nl/Clevite/Clevit..._tech_info.pdf

The third bit of misinformation is that the Accusump created gerator pumps and thus created the Accusump as well to supplement it. Accusump has been around since 1981. The owner was the same guy that started the company. The gerator style pumps have been around since the early 20's. The owner of Accusump never had anything to do with the invention or implementation of gerator style pumps and I know for a fact that Accusump and Canton Racing Products have NEVER designed or manufactured oil pumps. They have always built parts to fit melling oil pumps.

To call the Accusump a "Band aid" fix is about the most honest thing posted and even then it is still only partially true. The Accusump is not the hands down best oil system product out there. HOWEVER, it is the best cost effective product for not blowing up your motor. I've linked a page below that shows the effectiveness of the Accusump. Take it for what its worth. It just seems to me that Dailey isn't being honest about things and is trying to fear monger and take advantage of misinformation to sell you an expensive system instead of trying to best educate people and sell on the pros of dry sumps instead of an Accusump.

http://www.goapr.com/products/oil_pr...tem_20tsi.html

The Accusump has it's place. The tech guy at Canton Racing Products (His name is Bob) is an incredibly intelligent guy and can answer any questions or concerns you may have.

If you want a good unbiased opinion you can also contact Ron Sutton from Ron Sutton Race Technology. He builds some of the best restomod cars out there and I know he uses both dry sumps and Accusumps according to the customers budget.

Just my .02 cents.

[merciLSless]

Originally Posted by X25

Accusump is indeed not as reliable as one would hope. I've also seen it failing on various cars. Here is hoping you get it all sorted out! Sometimes it just takes a bit of time..

They had an issue with the valves they were getting from a supplier. The springs ended up being wrong and some of the diaphragms were not the correct material for hot oil. They have since remedied this problem with a better valve I'm assuming from a different supplier. Might want to call them up and see if they can do something about the shitty valves.

[JusticePete]

I am a very lucky guy. I have access to some of the best and brightest people in the automotive industry. My partner in engine building has been building NASCAR motors for almost 40 years as well as many other top levels of racing. I include in my circle of friends the Head Engineer at Lingenfelter, experts at Holley, Magnuson, ProCharger, GM, Chrysler and Ford. I don't know it all. I know the people that really do KNOW IT ALL.

A high RPM race engine is not built like a street engine. They are looser or they wouldn't live at high RPM. They require better lubrication than a street engine. They get dry sumped. There are only two ways to start a dry sumped high RPM / race engine.

1. Remove the cog drive belt. Use a right angle drill to run the pump up to pressure. Replace the cog drive belt. Start the engine.

2. Turn the ignition on. Flip the accusump switch. Start the motor.

This is it gentlemen. There is no third option. If you think there is you are wrong.

Thus ends the discussion on dry sumps and Accusumps and all the various misinformation that has been posted in this thread.

[Firefighter]

TTT for reference...

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk

[STONE SS]

Pete,

I see that you're signed up for the NCM track day at the Fest. Can't wait to meet you, see this amazing car, and have some fun out on the track!!! Although I will probably be pointing you by a lot.

[JusticePete]

This is not the answer we were looking for is an understatement.

This LS7 was built at Arrington Performance in Martinsville Virginia. It was hurt about two weeks ago at VIR. As we have dissected this engine build we have found countless way to improve the engine. Everyone will want to know why the engine failed. I wish I could give you a definitive answer. I can't. We know we had a hot hole in #7. Tune, poor fuel quality, oil in the cylinder and other factors all could create a lean fuel condition.

The engine is being rebuilt by Joey Arrington and JPSS. It will be a very different motor. Joey is a NASACAR engine builder and his shop Race Engine Plus builds NASCAR cup motors and engines for other series. This will definitely not be the same motor.

We will reuse the block after some machine work. We will reuse the heads after they get the Joey / JPSS treatment. Everything else is going up for sale or in the scrap metal bin. We will not be using street parts in JPSS builds. In Joey's words, we'll be using down town parts. Top quality parts that after 40 years of NASCAR Joey feels appropriate.

Building a built LS7 similar to this one will retail a little over $20,000. We pretty much got we we paid for. The problem is, it is a false sense of security and economy. A motor like this should have a five stage Dailey dry sump. It should have bronze bushings for the lifters to stop internal oil bleeding, the valve seats should be inter locked. Timing chains are for street cars. Spend an hour talking engines with Joey and you'll learn quickly what you didn't know you didn't know.

We are obviously very disappointed with the failure. As the project manager, I take this as a personal failure and feel it is my responsibility. SSsoon has been a gentlemen and we have worked out a way to deal with this set back. You know who your friends are when things go wrong. Peter is very clearly a friend. Our plan is to have the Beast from the East ready for the NCM track day. We'll keep you informed on the progress of the new motor and we'll roll out the new JPSS Road Course LS7 built by Joey Arrington.... SSsOON!

[SSSoon]

Originally Posted by STONE SS

Pete,

I see that you're signed up for the NCM track day at the Fest. Can't wait to meet you, see this amazing car, and have some fun out on the track!!! Although I will probably be pointing you by a lot.

Thanks man. I am looking forward to bing there too!

We are still ironing out some, ahem, glitches that JP has detailed above, but I am looking forward to being at VIR end of June, Optima Street Car Challenge in Charlotte in July, and then C5fest at NCM. Gonna be a fun summer. Pete

[JusticePete]

SSsoon has been patiently waiting for word on his custom pistons for his engine rebuild. Joey Arrington has redesigned a piston to reduce detonation and to increase power. The design has been painstakingly slow from conception to production. We are finally seeing light at the end of this tunnel. This is a true custom piston and much more than special pierce points.

Many other changes have been made to the motor. It will have a five stage Dailey dry sump with an air oil separator. Changes were made to the heads to increase durability and performance at sustained high RPM operation. Similar changes were made in the machining and refinement of the block. The amount of detail going into this engine is mind numbing.

Joey is an advocate of finesse and detail work. He and his TEAM have spent countless hours working through the build process to deliver a powerful and reliable motor for SSsoon. While waiting for pistons the refinements continued. We'll have pistons any day. The motor will go together quickly, then to the engine dyno where it will be tuned using SSsoon's ECM and fuel pump cylinder by cylinder. Then it will go back in the car ready to run.

We missed far too many events this season. I take that as hard or harder than SSsoon. We have been hard at work on other elements of Peter's build. Some he is not aware of. We hope when he gets his Camaro back, it will have been worth the wait.

[SSSoon]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

We have been hard at work on other elements of Peter's build. Some he is not aware of. We hope when he gets his Camaro back, it will have been worth the wait.

Next week's gonna be fun!

[Jimmy Superfly]

Pete,

I just wanted to say that you are living my dream. As someone who enjoys taking my L99/A6 to the road course your car represents everything that I would like to do with my car. Congrats!

I am still reading through the whole thread but I was curious about your transmission setup. From what I have read so far it seems that your 6L80E transmission is stock (other than cooling and I'm assuming a tune). Is that true? Have you done anything else to make it stronger? All over Camaro5 all I ever read about the 6L80E is that it is weak and needs a good tune.

I have a canned tune right now on my ECU and TCU as my only 'power' mods are bolt on's and 3.45 gears. I'd love to know if your tune involved anything road-racing specific and if so where you had it done. I'm running an ADM trans cooler right now and haven't experienced any issues with my 6L80E but I must admit I am nervous after everything I have read.


Finally, what are your future plans for your car's transmission? Are you going to eventually swap in a manual like a TR6060 or are you waiting to get your hands on something like an 8L90E?

Congrats again on a beautiful car and all of your hard work.

All the best,

James

[SSSoon]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Superfly

Pete,

I just wanted to say that you are living my dream. As someone who enjoys taking my L99/A6 to the road course your car represents everything that I would like to do with my car. Congrats!

I am still reading through the whole thread but I was curious about your transmission setup. From what I have read so far it seems that your 6L80E transmission is stock (other than cooling and I'm assuming a tune). Is that true? Have you done anything else to make it stronger? All over Camaro5 all I ever read about the 6L80E is that it is weak and needs a good tune.

I have a canned tune right now on my ECU and TCU as my only 'power' mods are bolt on's and 3.45 gears. I'd love to know if your tune involved anything road-racing specific and if so where you had it done. I'm running an ADM trans cooler right now and haven't experienced any issues with my 6L80E but I must admit I am nervous after everything I have read.


Finally, what are your future plans for your car's transmission? Are you going to eventually swap in a manual like a TR6060 or are you waiting to get your hands on something like an 8L90E?

Congrats again on a beautiful car and all of your hard work.

All the best,

James

Hey James - thanks for the note and for the compliments.

Believe it or not, we are still running the stock 6L80E. I am personally flabbergasted that it hasn't puked and died yet, but so far so good. Trust me, I have not been easy on it (e.g. I paddle shift up with gas pedal floored on long straight runs), but every time we check, the tranny fluid is fine and so far nothing has complained. The max HP rating for the 6L80E is WAY below what we are pushing through it, so I don't think it's going to last long.

The tune I am running provides very crisp and fast shifts, which honestly I think is easier on the engine than the OEM long laggy ones (but I'm not an engineer, so that's just a guess). Talk to JusticePete about the tune.

BTW I am running some aluminum paddle shifters that fit easily over the buttons and make shifting so much easier.

What's next? Good question. 8L90E looks sweet but is not a direct swap (I think it has a different form factor). T56 Super Magnum, with PPG Sequential shifter, maybe? Gotta win the lottery first...

Pete

[Jimmy Superfly]

Originally Posted by SSSoon

Hey James - thanks for the note and for the compliments.

Believe it or not, we are still running the stock 6L80E. I am personally flabbergasted that it hasn't puked and died yet, but so far so good. Trust me, I have not been easy on it (e.g. I paddle shift up with gas pedal floored on long straight runs), but every time we check, the tranny fluid is fine and so far nothing has complained. The max HP rating for the 6L80E is WAY below what we are pushing through it, so I don't think it's going to last long.

The tune I am running provides very crisp and fast shifts, which honestly I think is easier on the engine than the OEM long laggy ones (but I'm not an engineer, so that's just a guess). Talk to JusticePete about the tune.

BTW I am running some aluminum paddle shifters that fit easily over the buttons and make shifting so much easier.

What's next? Good question. 8L90E looks sweet but is not a direct swap (I think it has a different form factor). T56 Super Magnum, with PPG Sequential shifter, maybe? Gotta win the lottery first...

Pete

Thanks for the info Pete! I will have to reach out to JusticePete and ask about the tune. I have a JRE tune right now and while it was a huge improvement over stock I'd prefer to have something that was more tailored to roadracing if possible.

I have actually looked at those aluminium paddles but the only ones I have ever seen don't fit on the 2012+ cars because of the different steering wheel. Granted the paddles on the newer style wheel are better than the original ones but it would still be sweet to have something bigger and more functional.

I have seen some videos of that PPG unit and that's certainly where my money would go if I had some winning lottery numbers.

I wish you all the best with your car and the rest of the race season. I'm sure I will have more questions for you in the future.

James

[SSSoon]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Superfly

I wish you all the best with your car and the rest of the race season. I'm sure I will have more questions for you in the future.

Thanks man. Pistons showed up yesterday and JPSS is hard at work on the engine as we speak. If all goes well, tuning Monday, and car fully assembled Wednesday in time for me to haul it out to CamaroFest. Can't wait to try it out... fingers crossed everything goes well on timing.

You going to CamaroFest? Long haul from Toronto...

Pete

[Jimmy Superfly]

Originally Posted by SSSoon

Thanks man. Pistons showed up yesterday and JPSS is hard at work on the engine as we speak. If all goes well, tuning Monday, and car fully assembled Wednesday in time for me to haul it out to CamaroFest. Can't wait to try it out... fingers crossed everything goes well on timing.

You going to CamaroFest? Long haul from Toronto...

Pete

CamaroFest always seems to be a long haul from Toronto but I still plan to make it one of these years. This year however is not my year. I hope the car is ready to roll and you have a great time!