Z28 and the 5th Gen Refresh.

[thePill]

Hey Number 3, give Pfadt Racing a call and see what they did to the Autohaus Camaro GT.R's suspension. 5th Gen Camaro's are doing very, very well in Rolex GT all of the sudden, some of that has to do with the tubular frame and the Camaro weighing like 3000lbs (I have heard as low as 2900lbs due to the tubing) but, the stock suspension is being moved around (not to exceed 1 inch in either direction). Those teams are doing something with the suspensions mounting points that are making the cars handle very, very well. The Banner Camaro (finished 1st last race at Barber) came in second behind the Autohaus Camaro. Whatever they are doing to their mounting points is what you should look at:
1.) for the 2013 Z28
2.) for the mid-gen refresh
3.) a future FE4 package
4.) or just make it standard.

I knew the Camaro's were going to do well at VIR because it is a fast track with some nice straights and high speed turns. Even though it was raining, the track dried up after about 45 minutes. We will have to see if the Camaro teams ca do it again at the Memorial Day Classic at Lime Rock before we get excited I guess...

Just to solidify my point about how good the GT.R Camaro's are doing this year, here is the team points standings for Rolex GT. Very close to Turner, but don't worry, team Turner will pout to the Grand Am officials and make sure you ballast gains a few hundred pounds and have your Camaro's fitted with a restrictor plate... that's how they roll...

Weight is always going to be an issue but, I have seen the GS.R Camaro's go as low as 3400lbs in Continental Tire. What measures were taken to get that low (keep in mind that's with a roll cage) and what measures that were taken in the GS.R Camaro can be used to get our 5th Gen Z28 below the 2SS. I know stripping the vehicle is out of the question but, they lost 400+lbs, I am interested how they did it, step by step and what can be applied to the Z28 that still keeps passenger safety, federal regulation and consumer demand in mind...

[thePill]

Originally Posted by truth411

Someone just pull that number out of thin air and poeple quote it like the bible. The Magna Ride hasn't Stop the ZR1 From kicking A$$ and takeing names on the track, Heck ferrari uses the same system and I am unaware of competitions that forbid ferraris to compete competitively because of the suspension system it uses, same for the ZR1. No offense but you guys are full of Hot air.

Covette nor Ferrari use magnetic ride control struts in any of the circuits they race in. Team Covette and Ferrari also do not use Carbon fiber rotors in any circuits they race in, Team Corvette uses good ol' cast iron rotors in ALMS and . There are no competitive road racing circuits (or Autocross) in the world that permit the use of magnetic shocks or CF rotors. The technology is fantastic and way ahead of its time but, in order to have a successful production road and track, turn key vehicle, it must be capable of competing on any circuit. This was one of the reasons I thought that MRC should only come on the ZL1 as an option, what is the sense of having the technology if it automatically disqualifies the driver and his car from competition. Open track days will be fine but once that gets boring, and it will, you will want to run circuit.

The real reason those technologies are not permitted is unknown to me, it could be that low dollar teams would be unable to compete dollar for dollar or it could be that certain manufacturers have exclusive patents on such technologies therefore, teams not competing with said vehicles would be at a disadvantage. The MRC disqualifies itself because it is electronically adjustable and most circuits do not allow that. Most racing circuits are sponsored by certain shock and strut manufacturers, they definitely want another shock on the track. CF rotors will be used in racing as soon as other manufacturers acquire that technology and as I stated before, it all depends on the sponsor. If Pep Boys sponsored a race, you better be sure that every part on the cars competing would have parts that you can buy ONLY at Pep Boys...

Below: 2011 Covette ZR1 vs. 2011 Corvette C6.R, The expensive MRC and CF rotors have been replaced with hand adjustable coilovers and smaller cast iron rotors. Even the Transverse leaf springs were replaced. Simple, cheap, durable, legal and somewhat lightweight performance... 5 things that need to be considered on every piece that goes into the Z28...

[thePill]

Originally Posted by truth411

Sorry But Heck no, The 1st gen Z/28 was about useing the best parts in GM's inventory to make the best possible track camaro. The 5th Gen should be the same, its a no brainer. 99% of people who would buy a Z/28 will take it to local track days on the weekend like me and would want a Z/28 design to give you the fastest possible lap times, That is the priority of the Z/28 above all else. Thus Magna ride is a no brainer.

Chevrolet built a Z28-exclusive 302 cubic-inch V8, created by mating a 327 block with a 283 crankshaft. Other 'Z' components included an aluminum high-rise manifold, dual-feed Holley four-barrel carburetor and special roller lifter cam. The Z28 package also featured a heavy-duty suspension, 15-inch Rally wheels, quick-ratio steering and a heavy-duty radiator. Special exterior striping and Z28 badges completed this exciting package.

It was just an exclusive engine by fusing two different engines together (something I am campaigning to do for the 2013 Z28), an aluminum high rise intake with a Holley and some other unique equipment. Far from best of the bin GM equipment, the ZL1 would eventually take the honors as best in the bin parts car. The charge was mainly lead by the engine which at the time, nobody could compete with. Ford was still running the 289 in the GT350 and nobody else was competitive. Just as the Boss engine was built today, every Mustang utilized the 289 except for PJ's team that Ford reverse engineered the factory Boss 302 from after an entire season. Once the Boss 302 was reverse engineered after the 1969 season, the complete Boss 302 hit the streets in 1970 and eventually won the last great Trans Am championship.

I would say to repeat the process in which GM took a crank from the 283 and put it in a 327 to get a 302 but the 5.3's crankshaft is shorter than the LS3's I think.

[toehead93]

Maybe someone covered this but I skipped to the end. Why would GM waste tome and money to refresh the 2013 Camaro when in 2015 there will be a new Camaro on the lighter Alpha platform and new 5.5l DI v8? This is when we will see the Z28/ssx Camaro...imo

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by truth411

Wrong, The 1st gen fully loaded Z/28 was the most expensive version of the camaro. A fully loaded 69 Z/28 was more expensive than a loaded 396 SS (those vette brakes were not cheap).

You'd better go back and do some research as that statement is not entirely true. It was very easy to run the cost up higher on the 396/325hp and 396/350hp as they could have verts, auto tranny (extra cost) and AC. Not sure, but I think the 396/375hp could not have AC.
Clyde

[Blizzard]

Originally Posted by toehead93

Maybe someone covered this but I skipped to the end. Why would GM waste tome and money to refresh the 2013 Camaro when in 2015 there will be a new Camaro on the lighter Alpha platform and new 5.5l DI v8? This is when we will see the Z28/ssx Camaro...imo

It has never been stated that the Camaro will move to the alpha platform in 2015.

Originally Posted by truth411

Wrong, The 1st gen fully loaded Z/28 was the most expensive version of the camaro. A fully loaded 69 Z/28 was more expensive than a loaded 396 SS (those vette brakes were not cheap).

You need to go back and check the sales brochure from the 1st gens.

Originally Posted by truth411

Sorry But Heck no, The 1st gen Z/28 was about useing the best parts in GM's inventory to make the best possible track camaro. The 5th Gen should be the same, its a no brainer. 99% of people who would buy a Z/28 will take it to local track days on the weekend like me and would want a Z/28 design to give you the fastest possible lap times, That is the priority of the Z/28 above all else. Thus Magna ride is a no brainer.

Z/28 was all about what parts will make this car ready to race now and also be able to sell in the dealer. It may be fair to assume that half of likely Z28 owners will take the car to the track, but to state 99% as fact is not unless you have conducted some poll I was not involved in.

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

But it could give a whole new meaning to the phrase: "Hot Wiring" cars...

[thePill]

Originally Posted by toehead93

Maybe someone covered this but I skipped to the end. Why would GM waste tome and money to refresh the 2013 Camaro when in 2015 there will be a new Camaro on the lighter Alpha platform and new 5.5l DI v8? This is when we will see the Z28/ssx Camaro...imo

The topic was brushed over but nothing is really confirmed at this point. I personally think 2015 is way to early to totally redesign the Camaro. The 5th Gen Camaro is probably one of the best selling Camaro's and generates the largest profit due to it's higher MSRP. The 5th Gen Camaro is also one of the major reasons GM is still producing cars because of its popularity and the rate at which it sold upon release. Redesigning a vehicle that has the potential to sustain its current sales is a really bad move, not saying that it will continue to hold its current sales volume, but if any car in GM's arsenal had that potential... it would be the Camaro. If GM were to redesign the Camaro in 2015, which I don't think they will, they would miss out on 300,000+ sales if the current sales pace continues. Think of it this way, the 5th Gens bills are almost paid for, the money that went into research, development, advertisement and promotions, production, personnel training, Oshawa's restructuring and who knows what else went into bringing the car to market. The Camaro is almost paid for and if you remember, the Camaro didn't have a generation change over so GM actually started from scratch. Usually, the previous generations profits contribute to the next generation and mitigate any initial cost involved until the product begins to move. If GM can hold out, if sales continue the pace they are on and if GM isn't fooled into prematurely redesigning the Camaro by their competitors redesigning their product... then I say wait to redesign the Camaro around a land mark event such as the 50th Anniversary. Besides, you never know what GM has up their sleeves for a mid-generation refresh, it could actually be better than the original and very easily carry the car another 2-3 years...

[thePill]

I am beginning to think that the "99%" debate is from my "1% Camaro enthusiast" reference which is 99% true...

Anyway, this thread is gaining momentum, the 2013 Z28 should be right on schedule, Right Number 3?

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by toehead93

Maybe someone covered this but I skipped to the end. Why would GM waste tome and money to refresh the 2013 Camaro when in 2015 there will be a new Camaro on the lighter Alpha platform and new 5.5l DI v8? This is when we will see the Z28/ssx Camaro...imo

While I don't believe that the 5th gen will get a standard mid-cycle refresh, there are a few things to remember about Alpha and the 5.5L engine:

GM hasn't said much (if anything) regarding the Camaro moving to Alpha. They certainly haven't said that it will happen for the 2015 model year. Also, there isn't going to be a significant amount of weight lost in the next generation. Some people seem to be thinking that the next gen Camaro will lose 300 lbs or so and I just can't see that happening if GM keeps the content roughly the same as for the 5th gen and the price down to mid 20's for a V6 and low 30's for a V8. If it loses any more than 100 lbs I'll be surprised.

The 5.5L V8 is a race engine ONLY. Its displacement has nothing at all to do with the next generation of V8s from GM. It is 5.5L only because displacement is restricted in AMLS. When AMLS lowered the limit to 6.0L, they made their LS7.R 6.0L but the actual LS7 in the Z06 remained at 7.0L. If allowed to, GM would probably run a 7.4L engine (454 cu). When the next generation of V8s do come, they'll most likely have a size range comparable to what GM offers today. Some are saying that the two main sizes will be 5.3L and 6.2L.

[thePill]

My revised 2013 Camaro Z28 Ad, you will notice the Limited Edition Camaro Z28 GS.R's (Like the Boss 302 Laguna Seca). However, the first 99 Camaro Z28 GS.R's will receive the Z28 GS.R with the number, in which you ordered the Z28 GS.R, painted on the car in the usual areas where race cars place their numbers (doors, hood, rear bumper ect ect).
Racing package comes with:
-Adjustable front splitter and adjustable rear duck tail spoiler that easily bolts on and replaces the factory parts (similar to the splitter/spoiler on the Intimidator Camaro)
-Daytime headlight shields that match the racing stripes (as seen in pic #2)
-Rear seat delete with rear "Z" brace (instead of "X" brace, why not)
-Functional mail slot (as seen in pic #2)
-Fiber glass hood with hood pins
-Fiber glass trunk lid
-Brake duct kit replaces factory fog lights
-Functional rear brake ducts with brake duct kit (as seen in pic #2)
-Interior radiator guard for upper and lower grille
-Front and rear tow hooks (as seen in pic #2)
-Decal package containing all you see below

Just a gimmic really, nothing special except the number in which you placed your order painted on the car... something special for that 1%.

Of course the regular Z28's will still be available at the base MSRP whatever it may be...

[toehead93]

2015 may seem early for the Camaro to take its next step butbi don't see GM releasing the alpha platform without the Camaro. GM has 2 reasons to do so. One is to keep the #1 seller ontop by creating a NEW Camaro to stay ahead of the pack. #2 reason is to share costs for the new alpha with other GM cars. The new 5.5l v8 and alpha chases scream Camaro.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by toehead93

2015 may seem early for the Camaro to take its next step butbi don't see GM releasing the alpha platform without the Camaro. GM has 2 reasons to do so. One is to keep the #1 seller ontop by creating a NEW Camaro to stay ahead of the pack. #2 reason is to share costs for the new alpha with other GM cars. The new 5.5l v8 and alpha chases scream Camaro.

I hear ya man but that Alpha platform will run its course on the Cadillac first. The Alpha platform should pretty much be paid for from previous models and the cost should be split because technically, Caddy and Chevrolet won't share cost. It will take GM 2 years after they get their hands on a new Mustang in April 2014 so they have something to benchmark off of. The Gen V engine is no where near finished, the plant that the Gen V will be produced in up in New York just started production and the Alpha Caddy is still in the planning phase if I'm not mistaken (I could be wrong). If the 5th Gen can make it till 2016 for a 2017 6th Gen Camaro, GM should go for it. If the Camaro's sales dip down into the Challenger's territory (or lower) and the new Mustang is outselling the Camaro 4 to 1 or greater (with Aussie sales and no Falcon) then it wouldn't be a bad idea to discontinue the 5th Gen ASAP....

[Blizzard]

Originally Posted by thePill

My revised 2013 Camaro Z28 Ad, you will notice the Limited Edition Camaro Z28 GS.R's (Like the Boss 302 Laguna Seca). However, the first 99 Camaro Z28 GS.R's will receive the Z28 GS.R with the number, in which you ordered the Z28 GS.R, painted on the car in the usual areas where race cars place their numbers (doors, hood, rear bumper ect ect).
Racing package comes with:
-Adjustable front splitter and adjustable rear duck tail spoiler that easily bolts on and replaces the factory parts (similar to the splitter/spoiler on the Intimidator Camaro)
-Daytime headlight shields that match the racing stripes (as seen in pic #2)
-Rear seat delete with rear "Z" brace (instead of "X" brace, why not)
-Functional mail slot (as seen in pic #2)
-Fiber glass hood with hood pins
-Fiber glass trunk lid
-Brake duct kit replaces factory fog lights
-Functional rear brake ducts with brake duct kit (as seen in pic #2)
-Interior radiator guard for upper and lower grille
-Front and rear tow hooks (as seen in pic #2)
-Decal package containing all you see below

Just a gimmic really, nothing special except the number in which you placed your order painted on the car... something special for that 1%.

Of course the regular Z28's will still be available at the base MSRP whatever it may be...

I would like to see the rear seats easily removable for the standard Z28, so you can carry people but also remove them for a day at the track.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

While I don't believe that the 5th gen will get a standard mid-cycle refresh, there are a few things to remember about Alpha and the 5.5L engine:

GM hasn't said much (if anything) regarding the Camaro moving to Alpha. They certainly haven't said that it will happen for the 2015 model year. Also, there isn't going to be a significant amount of weight lost in the next generation. Some people seem to be thinking that the next gen Camaro will lose 300 lbs or so and I just can't see that happening if GM keeps the content roughly the same as for the 5th gen and the price down to mid 20's for a V6 and low 30's for a V8. If it loses any more than 100 lbs I'll be surprised.

The 5.5L V8 is a race engine ONLY. Its displacement has nothing at all to do with the next generation of V8s from GM. It is 5.5L only because displacement is restricted in AMLS. When AMLS lowered the limit to 6.0L, they made their LS7.R 6.0L but the actual LS7 in the Z06 remained at 7.0L. If allowed to, GM would probably run a 7.4L engine (454 cu). When the next generation of V8s do come, they'll most likely have a size range comparable to what GM offers today. Some are saying that the two main sizes will be 5.3L and 6.2L.

I agree with everything you said except, I believe the Alpha Camaro, if there is one, will be drastically lighter than the current car. The ATS with its base engine (4 or 6, I cant remember) is suppose to be about 3300-3400lbs, while the V8 is expected to be 3500-3600lbs. I know this is all speculation but, if that is the benchmark I totally expect Cadillac to come pretty close to those weights. Every new model vehicle will be built with weight savings in mind where previous models were not. Both Ford and GM are doing some pretty special things with high strength steel in the safety cage, engine cradle, suspension and other points within the car to make it lighter. Aluminum will be more plentiful on the next gen Camaro along with your plastics.

You also have to think about the Camaro down sizing a bit by reducing track, width, length and wheelbase perhaps a little closer to the Corvette. Inches off the vehicle are pounds as well... have faith in engineering and new materials... If GM intends for the Alpha Camaro to carry the Ecotec 2.0 then the Camaro absolutely has to be 3300-3400lbs with the engine, lower if god permits.

Edit: By the way, I have heard that the 6th Gen Camaro is going back to the swept look that the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Gens had. That rumor received a 50/50 response, I am still on the /