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Old 04-05-2011, 07:56 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by fielderLS3 View Post
Oddly enough, the second car was down about the same amount Ford says it will be down if you run 87 octane. Perhaps insideline is being cheap at the gas pump with their car.

380 rwhp still puts it at 425-435 at the crank, still more than the 412 Ford is claiming.
I would say that is either a generous dyno or one that is in great weather conditions (or probably both). There would no reason for Ford to underrate the 5.0, considering even 435 is still a good 115 away from its big brother. Although, maybe the Ford execs thought that it would be too close to the Boss?
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Old 04-05-2011, 09:13 PM   #16
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Like I said, this is why we don't race on dynos. This is a DYNO people, not a track. It's a tuning tool. These two runs were a YEAR apart with two different cars. This is not out of the ordinary at all.
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Old 04-06-2011, 02:48 AM   #17
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one was dyno in 4th, the other in fifth that will explain the difference in HP.
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:14 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by thePill View Post
Oh my god!!! What happens at break in? Between 1500-4000 miles?... There is usually a gain on an average of 20 horsepower at the wheels on an LS3. I wonder if those figures would be applicable on the 5.0.... Is it possible that Ford brought a 5.0 to the media day that was broken in, or do you think they threw a motor together the day before and hoped for the best?

ALSO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THAT INSIDELINE DYNO'D THE ORIGINAL IN 4TH GEAR LIKE IDIOTS!!!

In my opinion, anything that Insideline does after that 4th gear dyno, is pretty much going to subject to my criticism. For those of you that don't know, the 4th gear ratio in the Getrag MT82 equipped 5.0 is NOT a 1:1 ratio. The 5th gear is 1:1 and should have been dyno'd as such. Anyone who dyno's an engine in anything other that a 1:1 is an idiot, this would produce slightly higher numbers. Another example of the driver LOSING the race and the editor BANKING off of it... (Thanks for the hits... from, Insideline...)

wrong!!!!!

this is a back to back 4th gear then 5th gear dyno. 3-5 minutes apart. the operator didnt know 5th was 1:1. 4th gear reads lower.


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383rwhp vs 398rwhp. a 15 rwhp loss in 4th gear. thats the way it always is.


the inside line dyno is happy. or the car was a ringer with an aggressive tune. the stock tune is a piece of crap.
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Old 04-06-2011, 05:10 PM   #19
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wrong!!!!!

this is a back to back 4th gear then 5th gear dyno. 3-5 minutes apart. the operator didnt know 5th was 1:1. 4th gear reads lower.


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383rwhp vs 398rwhp. a 15 rwhp loss in 4th gear. thats the way it always is.
While a 4th gear pull may produce higher numbers, These 4th gear dyno's were ran in 4th and the dyno was calibrated as if it was a 1:1 ratio. K&N calibrated the machine at a 1:24 and ran the GT in 4th. The slightly steeper gear ratio would produce a higher figure base on the incorrect calibration of 1:1 not a lower figure, If they did not know what the correct ratio was, they most likely ran it at a 1:1. K&N got 367hp in 4th at a 1.24:1 and got 368hp in 3rd calibrated at a 1.67:1. If the machine is calibrated to the exact ratio you are running the transmission in, the numbers should come out very similar because the machine calculates the output based on what the operator inputs before the run and what the car runs. http://forums.motortrend.com/70/8141...-v6/index.html

As long as operator inputs the correct settings, you can dyno the car in any gear and get the same results +/- 1%. I also remember Livernois or Lethal doing a 4th gear pull in a 1:1 and their numbers were slightly elevated, If I remember correctly, they produced 390+rwhp in that error and then dyno'd the GT again and got a 372-374rwhp in 5th. I will dig up the link and I believe there is a video.

If the dyno was miscalibrated to begin with, that is where the numbers see an increase. the wheels are spinning slightly faster in 4th gear but are being recorded at a 1:1. InsideLine F'd up... bottom line. They didn't have the information K&N had, which is why they messed up. Now they are getting a 380rwhp in a 5th gear pull... thats still only a 3% difference from the 395HP pull, 1% of that can be machine, 2% of that is human error... but 100% of this is funny..

Last edited by thePill; 04-06-2011 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 04-06-2011, 05:51 PM   #20
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thats still only a 3% difference from the 395HP pull, 1% of that can be machine, 2% of that is human error... but 100% of this is funny..
From 4500 to 6500rpm, there's a 25hp difference or about 6%. Anyhow I just posted this thread because it seemed interesting... No, I don't think it's a conspiracy or anything.
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Old 04-06-2011, 05:59 PM   #21
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Probably because there is a soft limiter that starts just before 6000 rpms before fuel cutoff at... 7k (I think?) rpms, this is the same reason some mags were returning bad 1/4mile times... they were shifting at 7000 rpms....
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:51 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by thePill View Post
While a 4th gear pull may produce higher numbers, These 4th gear dyno's were ran in 4th and the dyno was calibrated as if it was a 1:1 ratio. K&N calibrated the machine at a 1:24 and ran the GT in 4th. The slightly steeper gear ratio would produce a higher figure base on the incorrect calibration of 1:1 not a lower figure, If they did not know what the correct ratio was, they most likely ran it at a 1:1. K&N got 367hp in 4th at a 1.24:1 and got 368hp in 3rd calibrated at a 1.67:1. If the machine is calibrated to the exact ratio you are running the transmission in, the numbers should come out very similar because the machine calculates the output based on what the operator inputs before the run and what the car runs. http://forums.motortrend.com/70/8141...-v6/index.html

As long as operator inputs the correct settings, you can dyno the car in any gear and get the same results +/- 1%. I also remember Livernois or Lethal doing a 4th gear pull in a 1:1 and their numbers were slightly elevated, If I remember correctly, they produced 390+rwhp in that error and then dyno'd the GT again and got a 372-374rwhp in 5th. I will dig up the link and I believe there is a video.

If the dyno was miscalibrated to begin with, that is where the numbers see an increase. the wheels are spinning slightly faster in 4th gear but are being recorded at a 1:1. InsideLine F'd up... bottom line. They didn't have the information K&N had, which is why they messed up. Now they are getting a 380rwhp in a 5th gear pull... thats still only a 3% difference from the 395HP pull, 1% of that can be machine, 2% of that is human error... but 100% of this is funny..


i just showed you a back to back 4th and 5th gear pull and you argue. there was no miscalibration. you must have been there at the dyno pull watching things. i doubt it.
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:02 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by assasinator View Post
i just showed you a back to back 4th and 5th gear pull and you argue. there was no miscalibration. you must have been there at the dyno pull watching things. i doubt it.
I seen your sheet, I agree. I also seen a dyno sheet that the dyno was run in 4th but calibrated at a 1:1. InsideLine is the only publictaion (if you can call them that) that dyno'd a '11 GT way above everybody else. Is it a happy dyno? I don't know what that means... The only way to get numbers that high would be to calibrate the dyno incorrectly. The Smoking Tire was there, Matt also said that InsideLine and MotorTrend should not have dyno'd those vehicles. That was not part of the press day. I wasn't there, but I know people who were... I will try to dig up the link to that reinacted 4th gear 1:1 dyno so you can see.
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:26 AM   #24
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i just showed you a back to back 4th and 5th gear pull and you argue. there was no miscalibration. you must have been there at the dyno pull watching things. i doubt it.
Here's what Jason Kavanagh had to say to defend himself after the error was made last March.
Quote:
The Dynojet itself doesn't care what gear the car's in. Remember, there's a final drive gear reduction after the transmission, which further alters the wheelspeed - engine speed relationship beyond what the transmission does, so there's nothing magical about 1:1.

In fact, dynoing in a gear that's 1:1 usually results in a hair less (yes, less) driveline loss as its a more (the most) efficient ratio in the gearbox. That's why a lot of dyno operators like the 1:1 ratio. Plus, when using an inertia dyno like a Dynojet, higher gear ratios have a lower rate of acceleration, so less power is soaked up in accelerating the rotating masses, which further props the numbers up.

Higher gears do tend to result in higher tire losses since the wheelspeed is higher... at this point all you're doing is trading off one loss mechanism for another. Generally, though, what I've seen come out in the wash is that on an inertia dyno, higher gears will result in higher numbers than lower gears.

Furthermore, higher gears also load the engine for a longer duration, requiring more cooldown, plus put more heat stress on driven tires. As the dyno operator, I don't like either of those things.
He is correct in his retort, but this is after the fact that the MT82 was founded to be the 6MT1500 and the gear ratio's were unchanged.
If I just believed everything I seen on the internet without being skeptic to every little detail... I would be and idiot. So, I asked Matt Farah from the Smoking Tire because he was there. At press time, there was very little known about the Getrag, it wasn't until a few days afterwards that the transmission specs were posted. Nobody knew what the transmission was, it was a blind test.. done without Fords approval...

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Old 04-07-2011, 11:28 AM   #25
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I don't see a problem with this at all; it doesn't mean anything. There are production tollerances and a number of other things that can influence numbers.

The bottom line is they're great numbers either way and I still believe that K-9 is every bit as good as LS3.
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:41 AM   #26
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Here's an example of what was happening that day, 23 March. In the first link, Motor Trend list the 4th gear ratio at a 1.24:1 http://forums.motortrend.com/70/8141861/the-general-forum/motortrend-dynos-2011-mustangs-both-gt-and-v6/index.html

Here is Insideline, on the 29th, after the specs were made public, with a 4th gear ratio of 1.32 (in the stats section on the right) http://www.insideline.com/ford/mustang/2011/2011-ford-mustang-gt-50-full-test-and-video.html

It looks like both were incorrect at the time because they were guessing. Insideline guessed that it would share the TR6060's 4th gear 1:1 and MT guessed that the ratio, with the help of K&N was 1.24:1. Ford had their website updated in coordination with the press release. Corrections were made to the reports as the information was made available...

If your figures are correct then they are correct, I have to look into it.. not saying you’re wrong, just saying I never believe anything unless I triple check it... thats just the way I operate...

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Old 04-07-2011, 03:23 PM   #27
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Dynoing in a transmission ratio closest to 1:1 is generally good practice because it is a good balance between maximizing the numbers, and the duration of the dyno pull. Dynoing a car in a lower gear will usually produce lower numbers, because a greater % of the engine's available "power" is used to accelerate the engine and drivetrain itself.

As a random analogy, its like riding a bicycle in the wind. Choose a speed, say 20mph. Riding steady-state at 20mph consumes less power than if you're accelerating at 20mph, because some of the power must go to accelerating the mass of yourself and your bike. Reducing the acceleration rate frees up power.

There is no magic behind 1:1; heck, many cars don't have an actual 1:1, and rear end ratio and tire diameter affect the overall ratio too.
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Old 04-08-2011, 06:45 AM   #28
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I seen your sheet, I agree. I also seen a dyno sheet that the dyno was run in 4th but calibrated at a 1:1. InsideLine is the only publictaion (if you can call them that) that dyno'd a '11 GT way above everybody else. Is it a happy dyno? I don't know what that means... The only way to get numbers that high would be to calibrate the dyno incorrectly. The Smoking Tire was there, Matt also said that InsideLine and MotorTrend should not have dyno'd those vehicles. That was not part of the press day. I wasn't there, but I know people who were... I will try to dig up the link to that reinacted 4th gear 1:1 dyno so you can see.


the dyno does not 'calibrate' to 1:1. hell it has no idea what gear its running and it doesnt care.

where do you get this crap you spew? a dyno reads roller speed, and also rpms from a tach source and figures gearing ratio. thats why lock up autos and autos in general have scewwed results for torque. the ratio varies from converter slip.


1:1 has nothing to do with rear end gearing. the dyno operator never tried to 'calibrate' anything. please stop insisting on total crap please.



guys a 1:1 transmission ratio reads highest because the transmisison is bypassed by a direct drive. also engine friction ratio means the slower the engine turns for a given transmission/final drive ratio the less friction losses you have.


a 2.73 car will read significantly higher than the exact same car with a 4.56. those are the laws of the dyno. not all of that other crap. the dyno automatically corrects for gear ratio. its not 'fooled' by a numerically higher gearing ratio. it accounts for that. my car would read ~10rwhp higher with 3.31's.
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