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Old 10-26-2020, 08:20 AM   #1
CamaroCracka

 
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First Track Event; Brakes No Bueno!

I took the car to Sebring yesterday and I feel like it handled well despite my poor driving. It was enough to make me see the need for a racing seat. The big problem was the brakes. After several laps, and some hard late braking followed by brake fade, I got a pretty harsh shudder in the steering wheel when braking on the long straights. I had XP Performance change the fluid to Motul 660 and scuff the front pads and rotors, but I felt the shudder come back in the next session after a few laps again and I was not even running it as hard as the first time.

I just put an EBC street/race kit (slotted rotors) on the and the rotors turned brown both times. I got suggestions ranging from upgrading to ZL1 brakes to buying a ZL1, but I would really like some feedback on what really might solve the problem short of upgrading to ZL1 brakes. If I have to do that, I will, but it's not in the cards for the next six months.

One question I have is how do the 1LE guys do it? They have 4 pot calipers and do road courses.

Did I pick a crappy brake kit?

Could it just be the wrong pad or do I need to replace the entire front brakes?

Is my inexperienced driving killing the brakes?

Any assistance is greatly appreciated as always.
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Old 10-26-2020, 08:22 AM   #2
cdb95z28

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CamaroCracka View Post
I took the car to Sebring yesterday and I feel like it handled well despite my poor driving. It was enough to make me see the need for a racing seat. The big problem was the brakes. After several laps, and some hard late braking followed by brake fade, I got a pretty harsh shudder in the steering wheel when braking on the long straights. I had XP Performance change the fluid to Motul 660 and scuff the front pads and rotors, but I felt the shudder come back in the next session after a few laps again and I was not even running it as hard as the first time.

I just put an EBC street/race kit (slotted rotors) on the and the rotors turned brown both times. I got suggestions ranging from upgrading to ZL1 brakes to buying a ZL1, but I would really like some feedback on what really might solve the problem short of upgrading to ZL1 brakes. If I have to do that, I will, but it's not in the cards for the next six months.

One question I have is how do the 1LE guys do it? They have 4 pot calipers and do road courses.

Did I pick a crappy brake kit?

Could it just be the wrong pad or do I need to replace the entire front brakes?

Is my inexperienced driving killing the brakes?

Any assistance is greatly appreciated as always.
Do u have any cooling?
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Old 10-26-2020, 08:35 AM   #3
cdb95z28

 
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Upgrading to the 6 piston brakes alone will not keep your problem away. It can help as the ZL1/CTS-V/ZO6 setup has more mass, and this helps with heat management, but it won't be the final answer. And the suggestion of just buying a ZL1 is a weird answer, haha. The ZL1's additional weight plus more horsepower makes the 6 piston kit marginal. But the 6 piston kit on N/A Gen5s can be a big improvement, as long as you have cooling.

If the pedal was hard but you had reduced braking force, yeah, the pads were fading, which means they were past their temperature limits. I would say they were inadequate. But with better cooling they might be OK. The OE pads are actually a very good street/track compromise, but their temp limit can be easily exceeded under the right circumstances. Always beware of pads that are marketed as a street/track pad. The shuddering is uneven pad transfer onto the rotors. This is another sign that the pad temp limit was exceeded. Do you have a pic of the rotors? You mentioned your rotors turned brown? Over heating will turn the rotors blue, and the calipers brown. I would inspect your caliper dust seals for burning.

You never had any soft pedal correct? That would indicate boiling fluid.

Sounds like a combo of inadequate pads plus zero cooling. You mentioned your inexperience, that is a factor. Driver technique matters in the heat management. Long, drawn out application is worse than late braking. The longer braking allows the heat to "soak" deeper into the components before there is a chance for any cooling. But in your case, if you don't have cooling, you might have a problem with either type of brake technique. And track layout is a factor, some track designs allow a better chance for the brakes to get cooled down.

I run the 6 piston Brembo set up but I also have very good cooling with a true race pad (Raybestos ST43) and Brembo HTC-64T fluid. I believe Motul is inadequate for our heavy Gen5s, Castrol SRF or the Brembo fluid is a better, but more expensive choice. I also am a late braker.
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Last edited by cdb95z28; 10-26-2020 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 10-26-2020, 08:46 AM   #4
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I see in your sig you have tons of power. That factor will play a big part in the need for an optimized setup.
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Old 10-26-2020, 09:12 AM   #5
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Thanks, that is a lot of help.

I have zero cooling. A few people told me I should be running track specific pads. I couldn't care less about squealing and dust, so that was going to be step 1.

I'll post a pick of the rotors after work, but it sounds like you are saying track pads and ducting might solve the problem.

The turbo presented a couple of problems. With the big cam, it does not have a lot of power below 3k, and although my first instructor thought I should keep the car between 2k and 3200, that was zero fun because I was exiting turns like grandma. However, if I kept her wound up, I was struggling to have it in the right gear. I figure that is just practice. The other problem was that I could get near 140 on the back straight, which seemed to be were the break issues came in.
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Old 10-26-2020, 09:17 AM   #6
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Next question: What is a good brake duct kit for someone intending to HPDE a couple times a year?
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Old 10-26-2020, 09:41 AM   #7
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Unfortunately nobody currently makes a Gen5 specific brake cooling kit that utilizes 3" tubing that feeds cool air to the center of the rotor. JDP Motorsports used to sell the Quantum Kit, but it is no longer available. That is the kit I have. Unless you can fabricate something similar you are out of luck.

GM sells the Z/28 brake duct kit and this is better than nothing. This kit is very similar to what the ZL1 uses which is a plastic duct that terminates at the wheelhouse and directs cool air towards the center of the rotor. I also use the Z/28 kit. I'm moving alot of air into the tire and wheel assembly. A few aero tricks help too.

Here is a write-up on the Z ducts on a 10-13 SS
https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=418879


This is the Quantum setup

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The Z/28 duct kit
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Old 10-26-2020, 09:55 AM   #8
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Race pads will generate more heat because they generate more friction.
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Old 10-26-2020, 10:34 AM   #9
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Thanks, I don't think the Z kit will work with the turbo, but maybe I can find something more generic in the style of quantum kit and fabricate the rest. I was thinking of removing the fog lights and running 3" ducting off of that.
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Old 10-26-2020, 12:19 PM   #10
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It is quite disappointing that no one makes a ducting kit for these cars - especially since there were kits made at one time.

cdb95z28 knows what he’s talking about, so his advise should be utilized for sure. While I have much less power than you (500rwhp), I’ve done the following with good success:
Centric high-carbon rotors
Stop tech braided lines
Redline RL600 fluid
Raybestos ST43 race pads

I never had the issues you describe, though. My problems were soft/no pedal due to using DOT3 fluid. I still had the issue even after switching; I’m hoping it was due to not getting a good flush (I’m blaming my wife since she was pumping the pedal lol).

As for noise/dust - I said the same thing about noise, but the race pads were really loud and annoying for driving around normally. I’ve since switched to Raybestos Street/AutoX pads which are silent and hardly dust. They don’t stop near as well as the ST43’s, but on the street I’m ok with that - they’re easy to swap for track days.
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Old 10-26-2020, 12:22 PM   #11
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Defiantly do the Z06/ZL1?CTS-V 6-piston brake upgrade if you are tracking your 700+ HP Camaro. "Got lots of go? You need lots of whoa".
You are throwing over 700hp at a braking system that was built for a 430hp car. I can only imagen how fast you are able to pile on speed with your turbo kit.
That EBC kit is more geared for occasional track use on a stock-ish car.
The standard 4-pot Brembos are just "adequate" for tacking because of the heft of these cars.
The shaking under hard braking might be due to the pads and rotors not bedded in all the way?

The local track here, PIR, is a fast track and is hard on the brakes.
After just one track day last year, I immediately got a set of EBC Yellow stuff pads. They were better then OEM but it felt like I was not scrubbing speed as well as everyone else on the track. I just have the basic bolt-ons.
Late into this track season, I grabbed a ZL1 kit and could not be happier. It's a huge difference and much more confidence inspiring knowing that you can haul her down quickly.
I followed Nick S's buy list in this thread:
https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8744227
3rd post in there.
Getting each piece separately is much cheaper then a full kit.
After that, cooling would be the next issue to address.
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Old 10-26-2020, 12:39 PM   #12
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Yeah track pads will get you out of fade, but with them, cooling will be more important. Because then another component to see high heat stress would be the brake fluid. And boiling brake fluid is way more dangerous than pad fade. Of course it is possible to boil the fluid before the pad will fade, but that didn't happen in your case. I've seen so many guys make their first trip to the track and not flush and bleed with a high quality fluid! Don't get me wrong with Motul, it is a very good fluid, but SRF and HTC-64T will get you a larger threshold away from boiling. Even with a lack of proper cooling, it is still possible to boil them. It all has to be a cohesive package.

What EBC pads are you running?

There are certain manufacturers of pads that work good on the track, ones that track guys gravitate to, and EBC usually isn't among them. That is not to say they can't work. But, with your kind of power, you are asking alot of your brakes. I think if you were an OE LS3, it would not be as big of a factor. Once you get your corner exits better, you'll be carrying more straightaway speed, further asking more of the brakes.

And tire choice will matter too when you step up to a more dedicated track pad. You need a tire that can handle the increased braking torque they can generate. What tire are you running?

With my ST43s, and my aggressive technique, I need a tire that can handle the braking power. On lesser tires, I can get into the ABS or worse Ice Mode.
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Old 10-26-2020, 12:50 PM   #13
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Sebring is my home track and it is rough on brakes. I'll be running time trials with NASA this weekend, last event of the season. My car is a 2014 1SS and I'm still running the stock 4 pots with no cooling. Power wise I'm bone stock but I'm typically seeing low 130's coming into turn 17. I tried the stock Brembo pads one weekend and that was a no go. I've been running dedicated race pads and rotors with Motul RBF660 fluid with great success. My setup is Hawk DTC70's up front and DTC60's on the rear. I've been running the Centric high carbon rotors for years so I stayed with them on this car. No need to spend the money for slotted rotors in my opinion.

I would try another event with race pads,good rotors and fresh Motul fluid but try a different braking strategy. I'm an instructor and what I see with my students is a tendency to get on the brakes early, ease up on the brakes a bit when they realize it but continue to brake up to the turn in. This process generates a lot of heat and can transfer too thick of a film onto the rotors causing the shake or the shake can just be the pads going beyond their operating range. My suggestion is to get on the brakes hard, keep steady pressure on the pedal and if you get your braking completed early then release the pedal. This is the hard part mentally. Cover the gas pedal so that you're all set for a nice smooth roll on the throttle when the car takes a bite somewhere around the apex of the turn.

I was at Daytona two weeks ago with this setup and saw speeds up to 159 mph coming into the turn one braking zone. Zero issues but there is a lot of time for brakes to cool off at Daytona.
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Old 10-26-2020, 02:34 PM   #14
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Kit number was S4KF1080
It was the "Stage 4" kit.

Link on Amazon is https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Front tires are Dunlop Maxx 305/30/20
Rear tires are Michelin Sport Cup 2s 325/30/20

Tires were sticking pretty good, as in I went into some corners at what I felt was too fast because the brakes faded, but I just turned it and prayed and it went around the corner.
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